ATC speakers / Monitors

[Chrise36]

A major reason I go the 19s was his review and statement they were the best speakers he'd heard to date in his system. As mentioned, I'd get the ATC SCM40 A happily if not already invested in gear, and may yet still. Having said that, as I mentioned, heard mixed opinions of the 40 passives, not heard a negative for the 19s, and some do view the 19s the sweet spot for the $. Never heard anything but raves for the 40 actives.

Try them side by side there is no comparison.

I did not, have no preamp to hook up to it and it didn't cross my mind either.

Switching between the Yamahas power amp and the NC252MP, it became pretty clear that there was a little bit of audible noise when listened to at the tweeter and at full volume of the preamp. The source clearly was the Yamahas power amp section.

That also means that the noise from the Yamaha preamp section is lower than that of the Yamaha power amp, and possibly that of the NC252MP power amp.
But again, gave the NC252MP back, if you can't hear it with music, whats the point.


In my (simple) test above, the NC252MP showed lower noise than the Yamaha A-S1200 power amp, which some would consider a good class A/B.
I think it has high frequency noise that is so low that it doesn't matter to anyone listening with it to music.

The direct in is bypassing a number of circuits it should be cleaner. My old Technics is terrible without direct in.
Nothing audible from LP ofcourse but if you plan to tri amp the 252 is a waste of money just for tweeters.It is inaudible on the mid though with the ear right at the driver.

 

[YSDR]

The hypex has high frequency noise: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/01/measurements-hypex-ncore-nc252mp.html?m=1
A good class ab will be better.

Wohoo, do you refer the 400+ kHz switching noise? I don't think this is a problem for any loudspeaker or human hearing.

 

[Chrise36]

The SINAD falls down from -75 to -60 as power goes up. Furthermore there is always the possibility of interference of class d amp with the dac bringing SINAD further down.

 

[YSC]

The SINAD falls down from -75 to -60 as power goes up. Furthermore there is always the possibility of interference of class d amp with the dac bringing SINAD further down.

that's when you push it to the very limit of it's power capability... be sensible to choose your amp with the power needed won't even go near that, and near clipping any amp will do so I believe

 

[Chrise36]

that's when you push it to the very limit of it's power capability... be sensible to choose your amp with the power needed won't even go near that, and near clipping any amp will do so I believe

If you look at the Emotiva measurements it stays cleaner than the Hypex. In a crossoverless active speaker with high sensitivity for the tweeters the cleanest ab amp would be my choice.

 

[YSDR]

If you look at the Emotiva measurements it stays cleaner than the Hypex. In a crossoverless active speaker with high sensitivity for the tweeters the cleanest ab amp would be my choice.

We understand that, but please don't spread half truths and assumptions (like how the 400kHz ultrasonic noise affects the audible spectrum or interact with other devices). Hypex amps are one of the cleanest and quietest amps out there in real-world situations, including any amp class or manufacturer.

 

[Chrise36]

We understand that, but please don't spread half truths and assumptions (like how the 400kHz ultrasonic noise affects the audible spectrum or interact with other devices). Hypex amps are one of the cleanest and quietest amps out there including any amp class or manufacturer.

There is no assumption Amir first noted this in an AVR review. I have not stated anything about that 400khz noise being audible. The high frequency distortion is present in the majority of class d amps reviewed.

 

[YSC]

If you look at the Emotiva measurements it stays cleaner than the Hypex. In a crossoverless active speaker with high sensitivity for the tweeters the cleanest ab amp would be my choice.

Not sure about which Emotiva amp you said, but if it's the one in the link you say the Hypex have HF noise, I did noticed the SINAD graph have different vertical scale,

Overlaying with scale corrected

The Emotiva have SINAD worse than the Hypex consistantly before like ~200W where the Hypex shoots up in distortion going into the clipping range. meanwhile both are good amp and good enough in the sensible working range IMO, unless one is going to buy an amp going to need the last drop of power from them for their speaker, both would sound just fine below audible range and it's personal preference with Hypex being technically cleaner, but surely, if you buy an amp in the senses you want every last drop of power in your listening SPL, that's another question but I doubt that is good for the electronic lifespan

 

[Chrise36]

Not sure about which Emotiva amp you said, but if it's the one in the link you say the Hypex have HF noise, I did noticed the SINAD graph have different vertical scale,
View attachment 259519

Overlaying with scale correctedView attachment 259520

The Emotiva have SINAD worse than the Hypex consistantly before like ~200W where the Hypex shoots up in distortion going into the clipping range. meanwhile both are good amp and good enough in the sensible working range IMO, unless one is going to buy an amp going to need the last drop of power from them for their speaker, both would sound just fine below audible range and it's personal preference with Hypex being technically cleaner, but surely, if you buy an amp in the senses you want every last drop of power in your listening SPL, that's another question but I doubt that is good for the electronic lifespan

The point is that a mid level amp like the Emotiva remains cleaner above a certain power level than the highly regarded Hypex. Beware that i own a pair of hypex monos and i love them. I am talking about the specific use in an active setup.

 

[YSDR]

The point is that a mid level amp like the Emotiva remains cleaner above a certain power level than the highly regarded Hypex. Beware that i own a pair of hypex monos and i love them. I am talking about the specific use in an active setup.

Okay, I used Hypex amps with 100+ dB sensitivity tweeters (109dB to be exact) in an active setup, yes, there was a very slight hiss in a quiet room if no music being played or any other noise was present, but when some sound (music, conversation etc) was present the hiss was inaudible. And we are talking about the highest sensitivity speakers here.
Still, the main noise of Hypex amps are far in the ultrasonic spectrum.

 

[YSC]

The point is that a mid level amp like the Emotiva remains cleaner above a certain power level than the highly regarded Hypex. Beware that i own a pair of hypex monos and i love them. I am talking about the specific use in an active setup.

sorry bro I really don't get that. in the emotiva example it only showed how the amp speced their max power, one is when distortion reaches xdb THD+N, the other maybe specing it more conservative before clipping, class AB do also have sharp rise in distorting before clipping. and noise floor wise in the audible range, the mentioned example don't show the advantage of class AB, rather the Hypex is cleaner in noise level. note I don't intend to own any passive speakers in near future, but in pure discussion sense I would just choose the right amp with the measurements rather than pure vendor claim, and then look at component quality if possible for reliability estimation, after that, the more budget friendly, technically good enough option would be the choice.

The rising HF noise of class D IMO was for the past products which isn't mature yet, now that noise is pushed so far in ultrasonic range even bats won't hear those, so it don't really matter for the class.

 

[WillBrink]

Try them side by side there is no comparison.
.

I'm simply telling you what I have seen reported, and if/when I make the change, it would be the active 40 regardless. There's no ATC dealer anywhere near me to compare.

 

[fpitas]

Be careful; that can be dangerous. You risk making other people's mistakes. Better to make our own.

Jim

Yeah. Finding random stuff on the internet is dubious at best.

 

[WillBrink]

Be careful; that can be dangerous. You risk making other people's mistakes. Better to make our own.

Jim

Yeah. Finding random stuff on the internet is dubious at best.

OK dudes, I give up. Nothing more to add on that one. The SCM 40 vs 19s cost is substancial. Alone, I'd be very surprised if the 19s were better then the 40s. At that price, you can have the 19s + a very good sub, perhaps even 2. That's apples/apples in terms of $ spent, and I would not be surprised if many (most?) chose the latter set up. That's the set up I have currently, and would definitely like to compare that to the 40 passives. "On paper" it would suggest the mids of the 40s would be better, while the 19+ subs would be more full range. I find the mids from the 19s very good, allowing them to play 80hz and up, but would like to hear the dedicated mid driver of the 40. Would I be willing to give up the full range of the 19+ subs set up for it? No.

The 19s rated at 54Hz, which means one must add subs for full range sound, and the 40s rated at 48Hz, which again, for me at least, will require a sub for full range sound.

Of course, best of all worlds is get the 40s and add a sub or two, but that's not apples/apples $ wise.

 

[Ilkless]

sorry bro I really don't get that. in the emotiva example it only showed how the amp speced their max power, one is when distortion reaches xdb THD+N, the other maybe specing it more conservative before clipping, class AB do also have sharp rise in distorting before clipping. and noise floor wise in the audible range, the mentioned example don't show the advantage of class AB, rather the Hypex is cleaner in noise level. note I don't intend to own any passive speakers in near future, but in pure discussion sense I would just choose the right amp with the measurements rather than pure vendor claim, and then look at component quality if possible for reliability estimation, after that, the more budget friendly, technically good enough option would be the choice.

The rising HF noise of class D IMO was for the past products which isn't mature yet, now that noise is pushed so far in ultrasonic range even bats won't hear those, so it don't really matter for the class.

We don't really expect reason from stubborn boutique equipment fetishists trying to justify their choices in the face of physics and psychoacoustics that put it under severe challenge.

 

[Chrise36]

sorry bro I really don't get that. in the emotiva example it only showed how the amp speced their max power, one is when distortion reaches xdb THD+N, the other maybe specing it more conservative before clipping, class AB do also have sharp rise in distorting before clipping. and noise floor wise in the audible range, the mentioned example don't show the advantage of class AB, rather the Hypex is cleaner in noise level. note I don't intend to own any passive speakers in near future, but in pure discussion sense I would just choose the right amp with the measurements rather than pure vendor claim, and then look at component quality if possible for reliability estimation, after that, the more budget friendly, technically good enough option would be the choice.

The rising HF noise of class D IMO was for the past products which isn't mature yet, now that noise is pushed so far in ultrasonic range even bats won't hear those, so it don't really matter for the class.

in the Emotiva example at 250w it is 10db better than the Hypex.

 

[fpitas]

The Benchmark is the clear winner. Not that human ears can hear the distortion of any of those amps.

 

[Chrise36]

OK dudes, I give up. Nothing more to add on that one. The SCM 40 vs 19s cost is substancial. Alone, I'd be very surprised if the 19s were better then the 40s. At that price, you can have the 19s + a very good sub, perhaps even 2. That's apples/apples in terms of $ spent, and I would not be surprised if many (most?) chose the latter set up. That's the set up I have currently, and would definitely like to compare that to the 40 passives. "On paper" it would suggest the mids of the 40s would be better, while the 19+ subs would be more full range. I find the mids from the 19s very good, allowing them to play 80hz and up, but would like to hear the dedicated mid driver of the 40. Would I be willing to give up the full range of the 19+ subs set up for it? No.

The 19s rated at 54Hz, which means one must add subs for full range sound, and the 40s rated at 48Hz, which again, for me at least, will require a sub for full range sound.

Of course, best of all worlds is get the 40s and add a sub or two, but that's not apples/apples $ wise.

How much is used pair of 40s near you?

 

[WillBrink]

How much is used pair of 40s near you?

No idea, never seen any listed. I rarely buy used gear regardless, unless I know the person or the dealer well.

 

[YSC]

View attachment 259544
View attachment 259540


View attachment 259548

View attachment 259552 in the Emotiva example at 250w it is 10db better than the Hypex.

Why just keep focus at 250w but not the lower power where the Hypex perform better? Yes if you need 250w for that application that exact Hypex is a bad choice, but there are other Hypex based designs which don’t go near the clipping limit at 250w.. it sounds like just nit picking to claim class D is bad, while for any amp pushed near their clipping wattage will just show similar trend of poor performance, what’s the point?