Arcam AVR390 or Denon 3600/3700/4700

[alexb997]

I am deciding between Denon 3600/3700/4700 vs. Arcam AVR390 which I can have for slightly lower than 4700 but more than 3700. This would replace my Pioneer Elite SC-67 which is developing issues. I do have a Classe' 2-ch amp for fronts, so will be using the pre-amp section.

Setup:
7.1 Channel
Front 2 with external amp
Four sources with HDMI
One Analog input
One Optical input
B&W 805S Fronts
B&W XTC Center
B&W M1 for rear, surround, 2nd Zone


I can see that Arcam hasn't measured as well in digital domain vs. Denon. But then Dirac is superior and should help with room issues... I also have to consider pre-amp section and using my Classe' amp for the fronts and not sure which would do a better job?!

IF I use an external DAC, would it negate the issues with Arcam? Like Streamer --> DAC --> Receiver Analog --> Classe Amp --> Speakers

Obviously I can't do that for HT, but I don't care as much about HT Sound quality as I do for Stereo music play.

Thanks

 

[alexb997]

Anyone?

 

[Doodski]

I'm surprised the home theatre peeps have not been on this thread. Maybe let it ferment a couple more days and see if it gets flowing.

 

[adidas2205]

I have been using the Arcam AVR390 for 2 years. In the home theater system 5.1.4 (bi-amping). I read a review on the DENON 3700 that it is head and shoulders above the ARCAM and bought it. Oh, the horror! What have I done! It is not even close to the sound in the stereo or home theater system. Denon is bad at everything! Terrible loose bass from the subwoofer. The central channel is permanently covered with a towel. It is not clear what they say from it. Bass is missing on the satellites. And adjusting the equalizer does not help. The image is more faded. Worse than Arcam. In general, there are many disadvantages. I understand that the test says the opposite. But put these two devices side by side and connect them to any system and you will understand what I'm talking about. ARCAM is much better than DENON. (Please excuse my English. I wrote through a translator.)

 

[adidas2205]

Since the ARCAM AVR390 was first sold and then immediately purchased by the DENON 3700. And I didn't really like him. I left the DENON 3700 and bought the ARCAM AVR10. Now these two devices are at my home, and I plan to make a video review about their significant difference. I must say that the ARCAM AVR10 is much better than the DENON 3700 in all aspects (with the latest firmware!) it is important. The difference between AVR390 and AVR10 is also there. I can clarify what it is later. Glitches on the AVR10 are present and occur more often than on the DENON or AVR390. But his advantage over the DENON 3700 forgives him everything.

 

[peng]

I have been using the Arcam AVR390 for 2 years. In the home theater system 5.1.4 (bi-amping). I read a review on the DENON 3700 that it is head and shoulders above the ARCAM and bought it. Oh, the horror! What have I done! It is not even close to the sound in the stereo or home theater system. Denon is bad at everything! Terrible loose bass from the subwoofer. The central channel is permanently covered with a towel. It is not clear what they say from it. Bass is missing on the satellites. And adjusting the equalizer does not help. The image is more faded. Worse than Arcam. In general, there are many disadvantages. I understand that the test says the opposite. But put these two devices side by side and connect them to any system and you will understand what I'm talking about. ARCAM is much better than DENON. (Please excuse my English. I wrote through a translator.)

There is no reasons for the 3700 to sound so bad, many others reported no such experience. You probably should troubleshoot the root cause in your specific case. The unit itself is not likely to be the problem unless you picked up one that has some defects.

 

[peng]

Anyone?

Hard to believe you can get the Arcam for less, is it used? Anyway, between the units mentioned, price aside I would just go with the feature set you prefer and ignore the subjective views on their so called sound quality as those would invariably be biased, due to Placebo, expectation etc etc., and likely not comparing apples to apples. Specs and measurements are far more reliable, useful and trustworthy, as long as you interpret them correctly.

 

[adidas2205]

There is no reasons for the 3700 to sound so bad, many others reported no such experience. You probably should troubleshoot the root cause in your specific case. The unit itself is not likely to be the problem unless you picked up one that has some defects.

Maybe you're right. But. Did people compare these 2 devices at home? Having the ability to compare them together. I have the opportunity. And believe me, the difference is very significant. I do not question the tests made on this site, I share my experience.

 

[adidas2205]

Hard to believe you can get the Arcam for less, is it used? Anyway, between the units mentioned, price aside I would just go with the feature set you prefer and ignore the subjective views on their so called sound quality as those would invariably be biased, due to Placebo, expectation etc etc., and likely not comparing apples to apples. Specs and measurements are far more reliable, useful and trustworthy, as long as you interpret them correctly.

The price difference between the DENON 3700 and the ARCAM AVR390 and AVR10 is not particularly high. And I don't want to argue with a test conducted by a respected person. I just want to give my feelings from using it. And if you find people on the Internet who have switched from MARANTZ or DENON to ARCAM, they fully confirm my words. I apologize again. This is my opinion. And the difference in their sound is very, very great

 

[peng]

The price difference between the DENON 3700 and the ARCAM AVR390 and AVR10 is not particularly high. And I don't want to argue with a test conducted by a respected person. I just want to give my feelings from using it. And if you find people on the Internet who have switched from MARANTZ or DENON to ARCAM, they fully confirm my words. I apologize again. This is my opinion. And the difference in their sound is very, very great

No problem at all, we all have opinions and are different more often than not. That's why is is better to rely on specs that are confirmed and repeatable by measurements done by competent individuals such as Gene and Amir, who are electrical engineers with extensive experience in related fields. What sound good to individual A may be not so good, or even horrible (in your example) to individual B.

Also, studies found in apple to apples comparison listening between electronic devices that have comparable specs, the claimed audible differences would disappear or become insignificant if the individuals were not allow to know which devices they were listening to. Again, I fully respect you have a different opinion than my, and you won't be the only one either.

 

[peng]

Maybe you're right. But. Did people compare these 2 devices at home? Having the ability to compare them together. I have the opportunity. And believe me, the difference is very significant. I do not question the tests made on this site, I share my experience.

It doesn't matter what they think though unless they follow the double blind test protocol. That's not my opinion, but I would say, experts opinion (such as Dr. Floyd Toole's, I linked his book/video before as others have too) opinion. You are right, no point to "argue", we can always agree to disagree, especially when it is just a hobby.

 

[adidas2205]

No problem at all, we all have opinions and are different more often than not. That's why is is better to rely on specs that are confirmed and repeatable by measurements done by competent individuals such as Gene and Amir, who are electrical engineers with extensive experience in related fields. What sound good to individual A may be not so good, or even horrible (in your example) to individual B.

Also, studies found in apple to apples comparison listening between electronic devices that have comparable specs, the claimed audible differences would disappear or become insignificant if the individuals were not allow to know which devices they were listening to. Again, I fully respect you have a different opinion than my, and you won't be the only one either.

Okay. I'll go ahead and tell you a little story. In our city, where there are installers for cinema systems, the products of modern MARANTZ and DENON are not perceived in any way. They say it's not what it used to be. I own ARCAN AVR390 2 years used to it and wanted something new. And even more so I read reviews www.whathifi.com and the local forum. I really thought that the DENON 3700 would play better than my ARCAM AVR390. Or at least the difference between them will not be great (at the level of sensation). But it is simply colossal! Imagine a huge drum and hit it-this is how the subwoofer sounds on the arcam. And then make a cut in this drum with a knife-this is the sound of the subwoofer in DENON. Cover the central channel several times with a folded towel-this is how DENON sounds. Take away the towel - that's what it sounds like-ARCAM. But there are also advantages in DENON, AIRPLAY is much more interesting and clearly reproduces music in DENON 3700 -this is not a disputed fact.

 

[Artsfols]

Adidas2205,
The difference could be as simple as the Arcam having a brighter sound in the mid-range and high frequencies, and your room acoustics having a deadening quality. An amp with a flatter sound curve, even though it looks better when measured on the test bench, might sound terrible in that room.
This is a hypothetical explanation for your observations, but I think it's reflective of the realities around our audio equipment preferences.

I have also wondered about the issue of velocity (my term) when it comes to audio equipment and speakers in particular. I don't think that ASR measures this; correct me if I am wrong. What I'm getting at is that instead of measuring gain accuracy for various tones, to obtain as close to a flat a fr curve as possible, what about the ADSR envelope on changing tones? Does anyone measure that? I know for a fact that speakers and subs can be very responsive or sluggish and this makes a tremendous difference to the sound. I don't know if this is a practical consideration in amplifiers or not. An electronic circuit can change states much more quickly than mechanical devices like microphone diaphragms and speaker cones.

The reason I mention all that, is that measurements are not the sound. Some aspects of the sound are measured. How those measurements relate to the sound is an interesting subject all on its own. I don't dismiss your observations in the least.

 

[Artsfols]

One other factor has to be considered. Audio equipment outlets and specialists don't like equipment sold through chains like Best Buy. Certain manufacturers will "protect the channel". This is as true in the audio business as it is in the plumbing business. A smart and competent plumber will buy a premium product from a wholesaler when working in your home. He is also going to tell you that the Home Depot sink made in China is garbage. (And he's probably correct as well.)
This is why I somewhat discount what you've heard from audio installers. Of course, that doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true. But they do have a strong self-interest in their judgements.

 

[adidas2205]

Adidas2205,
The difference could be as simple as the Arcam having a brighter sound in the mid-range and high frequencies, and your room acoustics having a deadening quality. An amp with a flatter sound curve, even though it looks better when measured on the test bench, might sound terrible in that room.
This is a hypothetical explanation for your observations, but I think it's reflective of the realities around our audio equipment preferences.

I have also wondered about the issue of velocity (my term) when it comes to audio equipment and speakers in particular. I don't think that ASR measures this; correct me if I am wrong. What I'm getting at is that instead of measuring gain accuracy for various tones, to obtain as close to a flat a fr curve as possible, what about the ADSR envelope on changing tones? Does anyone measure that? I know for a fact that speakers and subs can be very responsive or sluggish and this makes a tremendous difference to the sound. I don't know if this is a practical consideration in amplifiers or not. An electronic circuit can change states much more quickly than mechanical devices like microphone diaphragms and speaker cones.

The reason I mention all that, is that measurements are not the sound. Some aspects of the sound are measured. How those measurements relate to the sound is an interesting subject all on its own. I don't dismiss your observations in the least.

Maybe you're right. I'm not arguing. And at one point, I also thought about the korektion of the room and acoustics. I checked that out in two rooms, too. The house where I live. And in a country house. In these rooms, the acoustics of the same company were used,but the rooms were correspondingly different. And my score after listening in two different rooms remains the same. I will repeat once again I do not want to offend anyone or question the results of the tests. I have 2 home theater receivers on my hands. And I have the opportunity to compare them. And after the comparison, leave one of them. If you have had the opportunity to compare ARCAM and DENON at home, please write about it in more detail what exactly is better and what is worse. Thank you in advance.

 

[Artsfols]

Maybe you're right. I'm not arguing. And at one point, I also thought about the korektion of the room and acoustics. I checked that out in two rooms, too. The house where I live. And in a country house. In these rooms, the acoustics of the same company were used,but the rooms were correspondingly different. And my score after listening in two different rooms remains the same. I will repeat once again I do not want to offend anyone or question the results of the tests. I have 2 home theater receivers on my hands. And I have the opportunity to compare them. And after the comparison, leave one of them. If you have had the opportunity to compare ARCAM and DENON at home, please write about it in more detail what exactly is better and what is worse. Thank you in advance.

I have an older Arcam A80 stereo amplifier, which I love, but I'm thinking of upgrading to the Denon 3700X because of the increasing number of digital sources. (I have a thread about that also - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...boldly-go-where-no-one-has-gone-before.21724/ ).

Now I'm wondering if I should stick with Arcam, i.e. the AV390, for this upgrade.

 

[Dj7675]

Since the ARCAM AVR390 was first sold and then immediately purchased by the DENON 3700. And I didn't really like him. I left the DENON 3700 and bought the ARCAM AVR10. Now these two devices are at my home, and I plan to make a video review about their significant difference. I must say that the ARCAM AVR10 is much better than the DENON 3700 in all aspects (with the latest firmware!) it is important. The difference between AVR390 and AVR10 is also there. I can clarify what it is later. Glitches on the AVR10 are present and occur more often than on the DENON or AVR390. But his advantage over the DENON 3700 forgives him everything.

When doing your comparing, it would be more meaningful if you could:
-Do your comparison without knowing which one is hooked up. Maybe just in 2 channel with no EQ?
-Use a microphone to level match them both
-If you have REW, you could take frequency measurements with both units without EQ

Doing sighted evaluations, being human, opens things up to biases in sighted evalutions. It would be interesting doing the above and seeing if your impressions hold doing them blind and level matched. My experience is differences go away when blind, but your certainly may differ.

 

[hmt]

Basically it comes down to dirac vs Audyssey. Appart of room EQ the Denon is the better AVR.

 

[peng]

Adidas2205,

I have also wondered about the issue of velocity (my term) when it comes to audio equipment and speakers in particular. I don't think that ASR measures this; correct me if I am wrong. What I'm getting at is that instead of measuring gain accuracy for various tones, to obtain as close to a flat a fr curve as possible, what about the ADSR envelope on changing tones? Does anyone measure that? I know for a fact that speakers and subs can be very responsive or sluggish and this makes a tremendous difference to the sound. I don't know if this is a practical consideration in amplifiers or not. An electronic circuit can change states much more quickly than mechanical devices like microphone diaphragms and speaker cones.

The reason I mention all that, is that measurements are not the sound. Some aspects of the sound are measured. How those measurements relate to the sound is an interesting subject all on its own. I don't dismiss your observations in the least.

You are right about that for speakers that actually produce the sound, but for the today's amplifiers that once you get pass the cheap low quality ones, they pretty much have no issues with slew rate/TIM, damping factors any more, and we know frequency response, distortions etc., are typically below the threshold of audibility. It is not to say they all sound the same, but there is no way the likes of X4700H would sound "horrible" compared to the AVR-390 if used well below their limit and in pure direct mode, especially if only analogs are used.

I have compared an AVR-X3400H, one level below and 3 model years older than the X4700H, with my separates, no such obvious SQ difference at all to me or others in the room. Also plotted graphs with REW, and they look virtually the same, not just FR but things like impulse response, decays time etc. etc. The graphs were much different if I used different speakers, predictably and obviously.

 

[peng]

I have an older Arcam A80 stereo amplifier, which I love, but I'm thinking of upgrading to the Denon 3700X because of the increasing number of digital sources. (I have a thread about that also - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...boldly-go-where-no-one-has-gone-before.21724/ ).

Now I'm wondering if I should stick with Arcam, i.e. the AV390, for this upgrade.

That's the thing, if suddenly a couple posts say the Arcam sounded horrible compared to their AVR-X4700H, then what are we going to do? To me, I would respect, but ignore what others say about the differences they heard unless they did it under a controlled condition, and did it blind.