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Upgrade to 5.1? To boldly go where no one has gone before.

Artsfols

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It was going to be very simple. I had planned to move from my 2.1 system based around an Arcam A80 amplifier to a 3.1 system based on a Yamaha RX-V6A. Then I stopped reading the advertising, landed on this site (my son's advice) and my simple world came crashing down around me.
My general apprehension about making the move away from my older equipment was confirmed after reading here for a day or so. I would lose the sound quality that I've loved for 15 years in making this purchase.
It's probably fair to say that the AV technology is still evolving and hasn't reached a stage of full maturity. It does so much, but doesn't do it as well as the older 2.1 technology.
Let me sharpen my question a bit.
My 2.1 system consists of an Arcam A80, CD73 player, OPPO BDP-95 (for SACDs mainly), Totem Arro speakers, Totem Tribe sub with 500W amplifier as well as an Apple TV 4K box and LG OLED television and an ASUS SFF Windows computer.
Not the greatest system in the world, but one that's kept my aging ears happy for quite a long time now.
The general problem has been transitioning into the newer HDMI connected world from my very happy and stable analog audio environment. I'll be happy to describe how I interconnect all this equipment but I'll sidestep that for now.

What I'm asking for is a judgement call and commentary on which option is the most viable going forward. There are a number of goals involved - 1) obtain good sound from my Apple 4K box. For example, I subscribe to the fantastic Berlin Philharmonic concert series and although the sound is very good, it doesn't quite match, say, Bluray or SACD sound from my OPPO or even a quality CD on my CD73. - 2) add a centre channel (or better stereo mix) for movies - 3) improve the mix between the Totem Arro's and sub, which I don't properly cross over. (This doesn't greatly matter as there is so little low bass in most of my classical sources, but still ....)

Here are the very distinct alternatives I see:
Alternative 1. Replace the Arcam A80 with a Denon 3700 AV receiver.
Alternative 1A. Add a centre channel (finding a suitable one is a problem all in itself), OR
Alternative 1B. Use the incorporated Audyssey software to get better dialogue out of the existing speakers.

Alternative 2. Keep the Arcam A80 and use a miniDSP DDRC-24 with 'Dirac Live' to improve the sound from all sources, but especially the Apple 4K streaming content. This would be done ... if I understand the miniDSP correctly ... by inserting the box between the Tape In and Out connectors on the amplifier.

Alternative 3. Something else entirely.

Conceptually, I see alternative 1 as taking a step into the HDMI audio world, and alternative 2 as staying where I am (2.1 sound) with modifications.
I like alternative 1 in that it is 'plug and play', but there are fewer unknowns with alternative 2. This almost comes down to a 'gut level' decision I believe, and that's what I'm looking for rather than hard technical advice which I can obtain through personal research. Of course, anything along that line is welcomed.

If you've read and absorbed all this, thanks for staying with me. Open to all suggestions.
 
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Head_Unit

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very distinct alternatives
Funny nobody replied in so long. Did you do something already?
While I haven't heard the Arro, as a loudspeaker engineer I suspect they are better than you think.
Anyway, I don't think your alternatives are so distinct/exclusionary.
- Run the Audyssey already, if you don't like it turn it off. It can also help with the Arro/sub transition quite a bit. Audyssey XT32 with the App (Denon/Marantz) lets you turn off their midrange dip and customize some.
- Center channel, yes. 3-way! Either with a little mid under the tweeter, or coax mid/tweet like KEF or ELAC
- Ah, if you got an AirPlay receiver could that replace your Apple TV box?
- I'm feeling the miniDSP won't really work so easily in the tape loop, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
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Artsfols

Artsfols

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Funny nobody replied in so long. Did you do something already?
While I haven't heard the Arro, as a loudspeaker engineer I suspect they are better than you think.
Anyway, I don't think your alternatives are so distinct/exclusionary.
- Run the Audyssey already, if you don't like it turn it off. It can also help with the Arro/sub transition quite a bit. Audyssey XT32 with the App (Denon/Marantz) lets you turn off their midrange dip and customize some.
- Center channel, yes. 3-way! Either with a little mid under the tweeter, or coax mid/tweet like KEF or ELAC
- Ah, if you got an AirPlay receiver could that replace your Apple TV box?
- I'm feeling the miniDSP won't really work so easily in the tape loop, but maybe I'm wrong.
A lot of water on the bridge since I began this thread.
In fact, I did purchase a Denon X3700 and a center channel from ELAC.
I continue to be very pleased with the Totem Arro's.
I'm quite happy with Audyssey although it can be very confusing. This past week our son was down with his Umik mike and we took measurements using REW. It was then that I discovered that I had somehow turned off Audyssey. Everything has now been nicely retuned after many hours of fiddling around.
Here are the improvements I gained with the changes I made when I originally installed the AVR last spring:
I play most music sources without the centre channel, thus preserving the stereo imaging. Audyssey has flattened the response providing much more detail in the music I play.
I did not have a proper crossover to the sub before, and with a crossover now in place, the bass sounds much better.
Movies and TV shows with 5.1 sound, mostly on my Apple TV box, are less 'messed up' with voice coming through on the centre channel.
Elsewhere I posted my experiences in setting up the Denon X3700 AVR. It's a beautiful product but it is complex to set up at first.

Anyway, pretty much what you predicted/ advised.

I am intrigued by the words 'Airplay receiver'. Please elaborate.
 

Head_Unit

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I am so happy to inform you your -3700 has AirPlay 2! Ah let's see:
- Somewhere in the -3700 setup you connect it to your home WiFi network.
- Then from an iPad or iPhone or iMac,* you can select "Denon AVR-X3700H" as your playback (instead of speakers or headphone jack). After a bit, whatever music plays from the receiver! This can be a movie, YouTube, Apple Music, Spotify, etc. Really cool.
- If you get stuck with setup, reply here and eventually I'll reply back to help.
It is SO convenient and great, and the iDevice does not use up battery streaming Bluetooth. It is just a control pad, the AVR actually does the streaming internally.

*If you don't have one, get one used, even SIMless.
 
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Artsfols

Artsfols

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I am so happy to inform you your -3700 has AirPlay 2! Ah let's see:
- Somewhere in the -3700 setup you connect it to your home WiFi network.
- Then from an iPad or iPhone or iMac,* you can select "Denon AVR-X3700H" as your playback (instead of speakers or headphone jack). After a bit, whatever music plays from the receiver! This can be a movie, YouTube, Apple Music, Spotify, etc. Really cool.
- If you get stuck with setup, reply here and eventually I'll reply back to help.
It is SO convenient and great, and the iDevice does not use up battery streaming Bluetooth. It is just a control pad, the AVR actually does the streaming internally.

*If you don't have one, get one used, even SIMless.
Does the Apple ipod support Air Play 2?
 

Kal Rubinson

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My general apprehension about making the move away from my older equipment was confirmed after reading here for a day or so. I would lose the sound quality that I've loved for 15 years in making this purchase.
Not necessarily.
It's probably fair to say that the AV technology is still evolving and hasn't reached a stage of full maturity. It does so much, but doesn't do it as well as the older 2.1 technology.
I do not think it is fair to say that. OTOH, it is likely to be more expensive.

What you have done so far is a step in the right direction and I agree with you about listening to stereo sources without the center channel. Up-mixing is a complex process and I've yet to hear it done right with stock products.

From someone who went there before..........................many years ago.
 

Blumlein 88

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Not necessarily.

I do not think it is fair to say that. OTOH, it is likely to be more expensive.

What you have done so far is a step in the right direction and I agree with you about listening to stereo sources without the center channel. Up-mixing is a complex process and I've yet to hear it done right with stock products.

From someone who went there before..........................many years ago.
I may have asked you before, but what do you think of Atmos upmixing. Like you I've never heard an upmix algorithm I like. Yet many say you have to hear Atmos upmixing as it really does a good job. I also note you said you've yet to hear it done right with stock products. Are there some custom softwares that get it right?
 

Head_Unit

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Does the Apple ipod support Air Play 2?
No the iPod is not a network-connecting device. I suppose an iPod touch would work, but maybe too old? Anyway not too old phones can be had for not horrible prices (or at least before the pandemic; haven't checked lately)
 

Kal Rubinson

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I may have asked you before, but what do you think of Atmos upmixing. Like you I've never heard an upmix algorithm I like. Yet many say you have to hear Atmos upmixing as it really does a good job. I also note you said you've yet to hear it done right with stock products.
Depends on the source. It seems I try Atmos upmixing only when I am unhappy with the original and, sometimes, it helps. Conversely, if I have upmixing switched on , I find fault with it sooner or later.
Are there some custom softwares that get it right?
That's a presumption as there are so many reasonably satisfying old recordings that have been re-released in upmixed versions.
 

Juhazi

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Regardless of speaker or AV brand or upmixing software, the center channel speaker should be same as L/R. Or at least have same crossover point(s) and type. This is elementary, to keep phase same, the only way to make center to work as intended. It was a revelation to have that for the first time, only then I understood what mch and upmixing is really about.

I have happily used AVR as center of my hifi-AV systems for some 20 years now. The HT room system has single subwoofer and identical L/C/R speakers and rear L/R. I mostly listen to stereo music in 2ch without upmixing in the living room. Movies, concert DVDs or tv with DD 5.1 are secondary. Living room system L/R speakers both have sort of subwoofers (4-way) but the center and rear are just a small 2-way and I am never happy with multichannel sound. But it is set up for living, not listening!

i naturally have specific stereo systems as well, but in different rooms, so they naturally all soud very different. Yesterday evening I listened to several Linda Ronstadt albums in my bedroom, stereo, now I take replay in the living room, stereo but with dipoles and this is what I really love!

Humming To Myself, A Merry Little Christmas, Adieu False Heart are highlights of her career, just like Canciones de Mi Padre!
 
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Artsfols

Artsfols

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Not necessarily.

I do not think it is fair to say that. OTOH, it is likely to be more expensive.

What you have done so far is a step in the right direction and I agree with you about listening to stereo sources without the center channel. Up-mixing is a complex process and I've yet to hear it done right with stock products.

From someone who went there before..........................many years ago.
My apprehension, written almost a year ago, was proven mainly incorrect. When listening to purely stereo disc sources I at least retained the quality from my Arcam amp and CD player. I was also able to find a way to keep using the SACD high end DAC output on my OPPO blu ray player although haven't used it much lately for various reasons.
And as I described above made gains in other areas.
 
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Artsfols

Artsfols

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No the iPod is not a network-connecting device. I suppose an iPod touch would work, but maybe too old? Anyway not too old phones can be had for not horrible prices (or at least before the pandemic; haven't checked lately)
Too bad. I also have a Fiio M6 kicking around, but you have to side load everything and dink around with it. I've concluded that I want something that works across a network and works out of the box. That is, if I do anything at all Right now, my plan is to "silo" my smartphone for portable listening, i.e. with downloads, and use a web browser on my multi-media PC for streaming into my main music system.
Does anyone know how I can measure the quality (frequency, word size) on an incoming stream of any description on a Windows 10 machine? There must be a software tool that does that.
 
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Artsfols

Artsfols

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Regarless of speaker or AV brand or upmixing software, the center channel speaker should be same as L/R. Or at least have same crossover point(s) and type. This is elementary, to keep phase same, the only way to make center to work as intended. It was a revelation to have that for the first time, only then I understood what mch and upmixing is really about.

I have happily used AVR as center of my hifi-AV systems for some 20 years now. The HT room system has single subwoofer and identical L/C/R speakers and rear L/R. I mostly listen to stereo music in 2ch without upmixing in the living room. Movies, concert DVDs or tv with DD 5.1 are secondary. Living room system L/R speakers both have sort of subwoofers (4-way) and the center and rear are just a small 2-way and I am never happy with multichannel sound. But it set up for living, not listening!

i naturally have specific stereo systems as well, but in different rooms, so they naturally all soud very different. Yesterday evening I listened to several Linda Ronstadt albums in my bedroom, stereo, now I take replay in the living room, stereo but with dipoles and this is what I really love!

Humming To Myself, A Merry Little Christmas, Adieu False Heart are highlights of her career, just like Canciones de Mi Padre!
I purchased an ELAC center channel to go with my Totem Arro's. Some say, stick to the same brand. It's a mismatch only in the sense that the raw quality of the ELAC does not match the Arro's. Not a problem because I don't use the centre channel for serious music listening, and how much does it matter when watching the Formula 1 doc on Netflix?
BTW, what's stereo with dipole? "Dipole" to this old guy means the little wire antenna that used to ship with FM tuners.
 

Juhazi

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Artsfols

Artsfols

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No the iPod is not a network-connecting device. I suppose an iPod touch would work, but maybe too old? Anyway not too old phones can be had for not horrible prices (or at least before the pandemic; haven't checked lately)
When I read your comment, I immediately thought ... well, that rules that out.

However, the ipod has to be network connecting. How else would you run the Apple store to download music? The old ipod's ran across a wired connection. Surely they don't use that anymore.
If it is network connecting, doesn't mean that it will handle Airplay, of course.
 
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