Apple lossless official announcement

[Blaspheme]

I know that Atmos/spatial works through dac/amp on an iPhone as I can distingush between normal and Atmos versions through the toggle under settings/music…

I ask myself if Apple does „some magic“ in the Airpods electronics to enhance the spatial sensation which are not possible to be reproduced through external dac/amp & classic wired headphone?

Yes, my final comment re Atmos working via iPhone to DAC really belonged with my earlier post, not as an answer to you in particular. It was really an addition to my observation that the same DAC didn't do Atmos from Music app on macOS.

While I can't answer regarding any AirPods Max magic now, Apple did say head tracking with Atmos music (as they do for movie sound) was coming later. I expect that will be noticeable (via Max and Pro).

 

[Blaspheme]

What I loved about Tidal’s marketing was when they said lossless ”doesn’t stress the brain” as much as compressed music.

I actually don't recall being more relaxed listening to Tidal, I will concentrate harder on relaxing next time.

 

[KeithPhantom]

It is virtually indistinguishable to 99.99% of the people.

In my times of being a HydrogenAudio reader, I deeply explored AAC (was my main codec and still is to this day), it is truly impressive that we are capable of fooling our brains with only ~10% of the lossless source. Technologies such as HE-AAC were great for limited-bandwidth audio applications and even the scalable codec options it provided (AAC SLS). For now, even sighted I can’t hear a difference, and controlling variables by turning this testing into a double-blind would make even more obvious that the differences are really really minute for our brains.

 

[leonidas]

What I loved about Tidal’s marketing was when they said lossless ”doesn’t stress the brain” as much as compressed music.

Did they really say this? Do you have a source?

 

[leonidas]

Yes, my final comment re Atmos working via iPhone to DAC really belonged with my earlier post, not as an answer to you in particular. It was really an addition to my observation that the same DAC didn't do Atmos from Music app on macOS.

While I can't answer regarding any AirPods Max magic now, Apple did say head tracking with Atmos music (as they do for movie sound) was coming later. I expect that will be noticeable (via Max and Pro).

Cool, I just read it on apple.com, they will add head tracking to AirPods Pro/Max in the fall. This might be technically really interesting. I ordered the Max now with a nice discount through Amazon (maybe prime day special?) but I have not really high hopes in terms of sound quality for regular stereo. But the gadget aspect regarding spatial / head tracking is intriguing to me…

 

[vhild§]

Did they really say this? Do you have a source?

My bad, apparently it wasn’t Tidal but someone else:

https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.cnb...es-people-cant-tell-it-when-they-hear-it.html

 

[Blaspheme]

My bad, apparently it wasn’t Tidal but someone else:

https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.cnb...es-people-cant-tell-it-when-they-hear-it.html

That's a relief, I was already getting stressed about having to relax more.

Reading the article, I couldn't help thinking about the brain scan trial to see if interpolation stress is a thing (so forget saving up for an AP).

 

[Zensō]

My bad, apparently it wasn’t Tidal but someone else:

https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.cnb...es-people-cant-tell-it-when-they-hear-it.html

From the article:

”In-house music expert Steve Liesman suggested that the high-fidelity music makes an impact not on listeners' ears, but on their minds and hearts. He said that "lossless" music reduces stress levels, while heavily compressed audio requires listeners' brains to fill in the gaps. Sure, you might hear it the same in your ears, but over time it raises your stress to keep mentally interpolating the missing sound data.”

 

[Transmaniacon]

Any idea if you can get lossless output on a Windows desktop via iTunes or the Apple Music WebPlayer?

 

[abdo123]

Any idea if you can get lossless output on a Windows desktop via iTunes or the Apple Music WebPlayer?

Not yet.

 

[eas]

Again, “in the cable”.. the cable (or actually the connector) contains a DAC, not an ADC! The ADC is part of the headphones. That is my whole point, nothing more. It’s incorrect and should be changed. It’s very clear that there is no way to get lossless or bit-perfect data into the AirPod Max. I never said otherwise.

WRT the Lightning to MALE 3.5mm cable, it's a DAC and an ADC, it works both ways. If you hook it to the lightning port on an iPhone or an iPad it'll provide an analog stereo output. If you hook it to the lightning port on the AirPods Max it converts an analog stere signal(s) into a digital for processing and playback in the headphones. Unless I'm missing something, the AirPods Max do not have an analog input, unless you count the many microphones it uses for noise cancellation and whatnot.

It seems like there could be a way to get bit-perfect data into the AirPods Max via a USB-lightning cable, or a Lightning-Lightning cable, but Apple doesn't provide that functionality over the USB-lightning cable and they don't offer a Lightning-Lightning cable at all.

The Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC doesn't have enough power to drive most full sized headphones, if you have sensitive IEM's it might be "good enough"

In the video you started out ridiculing, he was using IEMs, Moondrop S8s, are those hard to drive?

 

[voodooless]

WRT the Lightning to MALE 3.5mm cable, it's a DAC and an ADC, it works both ways. If you hook it to the lightning port on an iPhone or an iPad it'll provide an analog stereo output. If you hook it to the lightning port on the AirPods Max it converts an analog stere signal(s) into a digital for processing and playback in the headphones. Unless I'm missing something, the AirPods Max do not have an analog input, unless you count the many microphones it uses for noise cancellation and whatnot.

Why would they not just give the thing a usb-c input then for audio (it already charges with it)? Why choose an audio connector for a digital connection? Why the need for DAC->ADC in the cable if you could just do it the digital way in the first place? Why does it work with other phone as well via a normal 3.5mm cable?

Occam’s razor says your wrong here.

Edit: Occam’s razor did not notice that the Max has no 3.5mm input, so the max has only lightning input, meaning the cable goes from analog 3.5mm to lightning.

 

[Zensō]

Why would they not just give the thing a usb-c input then for audio (it already charges with it)? Why choose an audio connector for a digital connection? Why the need for DAC->ADC in the cable if you could just do it the digital way in the first place? Why does it work with other phone as well via a normal 3.5mm cable?

Occam’s razor says your wrong here.

Here’s info from the product description. Not sure if this clears it up…

 

[voodooless]

Here’s info from the product description. Not sure if this clears it up…

View attachment 137028

Yeah, it’s just a DAC..

edit: so it is both, see a few posts down.

 

[mSpot]

WRT the Lightning to MALE 3.5mm cable
...
If you hook it to the lightning port on the AirPods Max it converts an analog stere signal(s) into a digital for processing and playback in the headphones.

No idea how you came to that conclusion. The lightning port on the AirPods Max is only for charging the headphone. It comes with a Lightning to USB cable for charging.

 

[eas]

Why choose an audio connector for a digital connection?

It's not a digital connection. The male 3.5mm is either analog in or out.

Yeah, it’s just a DAC..

Read the whole thing until you understand it. Try forgetting what you are sure you know.

No idea how you came to that conclusion. The lightning port on the AirPods Max is only for charging the headphone. It comes with a Lightning to USB cable for charging.

I read things until I'm pretty sure I understand them. If they don't make sense, I look for more information. How about you?

Apple sells, separately, a lightning to MALE 3.5mm adapter cable that is described in the image @acbarn posted a couple of posts above yours.

 

[eas]

Not really, you've just written a more elaborate summary than I did, for which I was far too lazy I mentioned the two versions as well as the channel layout in my original post already.

I dug into the downloaded files, before you did. Then I did more digging into what files were being read and when. So, I did more digging.

I've done even more.

When "streaming" in Atmos mode, Music downloads about 7-8mb from Apple's servers just before starting each track. From looking at stack sample it looks like it is executing an AAC decoder based on the method names it's spending time in.

If, instead, the track has been downloaded in Atmos format, it executes various Atmos and Spatial audio code-paths during playback. Recall that earlier I found that under the same circumstances it is reading files in the directory associated with the 16-channel "audio-atmos-2768" data.

So it appears that it uses a pre-rendered two channel binaural Atmos mix when streaming, but renders the output from the 16-channel Atmos data when a download is present.

 

[voodooless]

It's not a digital connection. The male 3.5mm is either analog in or out.

Read the whole thing until you understand it. Try forgetting what you are sure you know.

Ah wait, now I get it . The Max does not have a 3.5mm it self, only lightning. You are absolutely right. Edited some posts to reflect that.

Then then the FAQ also makes sense. In my head the source would be an iDevice, in such case that cable is useless unless you buy the 9$ Dongle.

 

[mSpot]

I read things until I'm pretty sure I understand them. If they don't make sense, I look for more information. How about you?

Apple sells, separately, a lightning to MALE 3.5mm adapter cable that is described in the image @acbarn posted a couple of posts above yours.

My bad. My impression from the AirPods Max user guide was that its Lightning port is for power only. I have now found this:

To connect to the in-flight entertainment system on a plane, plug a Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable into your AirPods Max to use them in wired mode.​

 

[Zensō]

My bad. My impression from the AirPods Max user guide was that its Lightning port is for power only. I have now found this:

To connect to the in-flight entertainment system on a plane, plug a Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable into your AirPods Max to use them in wired mode.​

In this mode, the cable/dongle is converting analog to digital, then the AirPods Max are doing the final digital to analog conversion internally before sending the signal to the drivers. This is required due to the lack of an audio port on the APM (Lightning is digital only). Some won’t like this, but I suspect the dual conversion is transparent in reality.

It gets really screwy if you want to connect the APM to an iPhone wired. In that case you’ll need to add the Apple dongle to the above chain. In this scenario, starting at the iPhone you’ll have digital to analog (Apple dongle), then analog to digital (Apple cable/dongle), then digital to analog (APM internal DAC) before the signal reaches the drivers. Clearly Apple is expecting users to use a Bluetooth connection whenever possible.

This would all be much simpler if Apple would have placed a 3.5mm audio port on both devices, but that’s a discussion for another day.