Apple lossless official announcement

[leonidas]

Maybe this has already been answered in the last 50 pages - does Atmos/Spatial sound better with the Airpods Max than „audiophile grade“ headphones?

Or the other way round - do you get the full joy (with the current few good Atmos tracks) with other headphones than Airpods xyz?

 

[MayaTlab]

Maybe this has already been answered in the last 50 pages - does Atmos/Spatial sound better with the Airpods Max than „audiophile grade“ headphones?

Or the other way round - do you get the full joy (with the current few good Atmos tracks) with other headphones than Airpods xyz?

Dolby Atmos tracks don't change the hierarchy of my own preferences for headphones in general. I don't like most Dolby Atmos mixes I've heard so far but when I like them the APM doesn't suddenly bump up that hierarchy.

 

[Blaspheme]

I get tracks 1--14 as Atmos, but not the rest. So the album does not show up as Atmos.

Ahh yes, I see, thanks for that.

I must admit I listen to a different channel of modern music.
I do recognize the name “Norah Jones”. . .
Looking forward to your feedback regarding Atmos Apple Music experience.

Ok, after some logistics, here we are. Upgraded 2017 iMac Pro to macOS 11.4 as I hadn't done that yet. Tried it and 2019 MacBook Pro 16" on same OS version. Used Senny HD650 and Sony Z1R direct from audio out and also via USB-connected Chord Mojo DAC. I ran both uncorrected (so with Sonarworks off). I don't have AirPods Pro or Max.

I tried the Olivia Rodrigo and Norah Jones albums as recommended in mononoaware's linked video. I listened to the stream from Apple Music. Every so often I turned Atmos playback 'off' versus 'always on' (I skipped the automatic setting as Apple says that doesn't work with third-party headphones).

The iMac Pro is indeed unsupported, per Apple's advice. Worth a try. Atmos worked on the MacBook via the headphone jack, but not via the DAC. Interesting. The difference with Atmos on or off was entirely obvious, once I listened to the combination that actually worked (I got to that last—as you do—I did wonder about my ear/brain until then).

I'm not big headphone user, I just use them when speakers are inappropriate/inconvenient or for comparison. My impressions of both albums with Atmos are favourable. The soundstage that usually plays out in a line between my ears (oversimplifying, but you get the idea) expands in width and depth. Not to the extent that the vocalist is several metres in front of me, but enough. The Atmos rendering was a bit softer, maybe a subjective impression from the spatial effect, as the usually centred vocals move slightly forward in space and thus back into the mix. I imagine if the mix was done poorly this would sound crap, but both these albums are quite good. I didn't notice any ill effects, but keep in mind that this isn't music I've listed to often (Norah) or before (Olivia). Both headphones I used are pretty clear, you may like this less on others. But in my case switching Atmos off was noticeably inferior every time I did it. With the caveat that the MacBook's output isn't great at higher levels, I'd generally prefer to listen with Atmos done well, compared to no Atmos with the external DAC. So far at least.

Edit: I checked using a non-Atmos but hi-res lossless track—I had Elvis Costello's Pump it Up lined up as Olivia used that riff in brutal—but noticed no difference turning Atmos on versus off. In other words, there was no apparent Atmos processing applied to the lossless track. Also note that I did all listening with lossless playback on and lossless streaming enabled, so I most likely haven't heard any lower bitrate versions or rendering of the Atmos mix (assuming that is a thing).

 

[Blaspheme]

Or the other way round - do you get the full joy (with the current few good Atmos tracks) with other headphones than Airpods xyz?

Yes, absolutely. Relative to AirPods Max, don't know.

Edit: but only direct from the MacBook headphone jack, not via the USB DAC I tried which didn't do the Atmos, see above.

Hold the phone: tried iPhone to external DAC (the same Chord Mojo) via the CCK (Lightning to USB 'camera connection kit') and Atmos playback worked.

 

[mononoaware]

The soundstage that usually plays out in a line between my ears (oversimplifying, but you get the idea) expands in width and depth. Not to the extent that the vocalist is several metres in front of me, but enough. The Atmos rendering was a bit softer, maybe a subjective impression from the spatial effect, as the usually centred vocals move slightly forward in space and thus back into the mix. I imagine if the mix was done poorly this would sound crap, but both these albums are quite good. I didn't notice any ill effects, but keep in mind that this isn't music I've listed to often (Norah) or before (Olivia). Both headphones I used are pretty clear, you may like this less on others. But in my case switching Atmos off was noticeably inferior every time I did it.

How you describe things makes the experience (Atmos with headphones) sound like the $99 Creative SXFI Air I have been using recently.
Creative claims SXFI gives the effect of listening to stereo speakers in a room, which it does not (no claims of surround, likely expanded soundstage and added reverb to certain frequencies).

But the experience SXFI Air does give when using a microSD card to playback FLAC files of good live-recordings (it has local storage lossless playback capability) with SXFI switched on is a positive experience.
How it processes the sound exactly I am not sure, but it dramatically/tastefully adds more of the “live” effect to live-recordings.
I assume it achieves this with the added spaciousness + reverb + deep controlled bass which gives the impression of a big subwoofer or PA system.

Regarding Atmos mixes (on headphones), I did expect a bit more description of being able to “place” sounds/instruments at different points in space, or even the illusion of sound coming from above or behind your head. . . but it seems that is not what you experienced. . .

Although this is all assuming that the recommendations from the video (I posted) are actual proper multi-channel Atmos mixes.

The following quotes:

The soundstage that usually plays out in a line between my ears (oversimplifying, but you get the idea) expands in width and depth.

The Atmos rendering was a bit softer, maybe a subjective impression from the spatial effect, as the usually centred vocals move slightly forward in space and thus back into the mix.

But in my case switching Atmos off was noticeably inferior every time I did it.

Remind me of exactly what the Creative SXFI Air does.
What it is doing is simply locally processing a lossless 2.0 stereo PCM file, and as a stereo experience it is a tasteful and enjoyable experience.
The sacrifice of local processing being battery-life with the SXFI Air only getting 10 hours of use.
When switching SXFI off (you can do this in real time with the SXFI button) the experience is noticeably inferior every time as you also said.

 

[Blaspheme]

I haven't heard SXFI so you can't really infer a comparison. Someone who has will have to do that for you. Just imagine John Darko telling viewers—for the nth time—"no, I listened to a and b, I can't tell you how b compares to c because I didn't listen to c".

Regarding descriptors for Atmos listening, remember I'm Australian, we generally do understatement. If you want to compare to things written by Americans, increase the superlatives by an order of magnitude. It may also be that I'm not very excitable today. And I tend to write in paragraphs. Separating sentences probably won't add insight. Reading the last sentence you quoted separately will be somewhat misleading. Turning Atmos off sounded inferior with respect to the observations in that paragraph. Not to any other things.

Also consider that I did a sighted a/b comparison. I'm listening in categorical mode. Think big, obvious differences. If I spend more time (days or weeks) and my mind relaxes into continuous listening mode, then the sonic phantasms suggested by the signal will likely manifest via my ear/brain interpretation. I could describe them under those circumstances, but I haven't had those experiences yet.

In terms of specific descriptors like 'illusion of sound coming from above or behind' I expect that may happen if the mix went there. The recommended tracks were fairly conventional songs, I wouldn't expect a competent mix to place instruments above or behind me. Perhaps if FKA twigs releases an Atmos version of Figure 8. That would work. Also they were studio mixes not venue recordings, so any venue ambience would be synthetic. There may be some, but I didn't notice or specifically listen for it. Perhaps other tracks do that. People can suggest them.

 

[mononoaware]

Turning Atmos off sounded inferior with respect to the observations in that paragraph. Not to any other things.

Ok I must have misunderstood. I assumed you meant Apple Lossless 24/48 (Atmos off) sounded inferior to Atmos mix.

Also consider that I did a sighted a/b comparison. I'm listening in categorical mode. Think big, obvious differences. If I spend more time (days or weeks) and my mind relaxes into continuous listening mode, then the sonic phantasms suggested by the signal will likely manifest via my ear/brain interpretation. I could describe them under those circumstances, but I haven't had those experiences yet.

And there is always the case of a new “different” experience translating to “better”.
I think this is common in the audio world.
I’m sure I am even a victim of it with the Creative SXFI Air, which I only occasionally use since it allows the freedom to walk around without wire/Bluetooth range anxiety.
I admit though the “wow” factor is still there after a couple months.

 

[abdo123]

@mononoaware it's interesting that you found the Atmos mixes of certain tracks to be superior without Atmos capable gear, that has been the opposite of experience, specially on Speakers.

I will try the tracks the video mentioned.

 

[Blaspheme]

Ok I must have misunderstood. I assumed you meant Apple Lossless 24/48 (Atmos off) sounded inferior to Atmos mix.

You maybe understood that correctly. Lossless (24/48 or 24/44.1 I didn't download and check, but not important) sounded inferior with respect to the spatial representation of the soundstage/mix as discussed, but not with respect to other things I didn't notice or describe. For example, I didn't focus on individual instruments to decide whether cymbals (say) were more or less realistic, and so on. I simply didn't notice obvious flaws or artefacts in Atmos presentation of those recordings. And the comparison applies to listening on headphones with Atmos actually working, of course.

I thought a bit more about whether it replicates a good stereo speaker presentation. My speakers do disappearing act and soundstage fairly well, so maybe not. But it's hard to eliminate sighted bias of the speakers influencing the interpretation. I'll have to do more listening. I don't have a surround speaker setup to try (in comparison to Atmos via headphone, or generally)

 

[hmscott]

This Youtube Reviewer sets out to compare Apple Lossless to FLAC files - to see if he can hear a difference - and he picks the "Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC" to use for his comparison...

Apple Music LOSSLESS: Can an Audiophile HEAR the Difference? - YouTube

Pinned by Super* Review
Jules Standen 3 days ago
"Whoops the small white apple dongle converter doesnt transmit the hi res sampling rates. So this test is faulted from the get go. Do it again with a hi res dac dongle."

Super* Review 2 days ago (edited)
"Lossless and hi-res are not the same thing. I'm testing lossless. Of the songs I have in my testing playlist, only "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac is available in a bitrate / sample rate that exceeds the capability of the Apple dongle. (Most lossless is 16-bit / 44.1kHz sample rate, Apple dongle does up to 24/48.) Further, if I can't hear a difference between 256 AAC and lossless ALAC files, it is highly unlikely I will hear a difference between 24/48 and 24/96 by using a different DAC. The Apple dongle is not the bottleneck here."

I think this guy sums it up best so far:

Miguel Lopez Lluch 55 minutes ago
"Hello, I'm sorry to tell you that TIDAL Hi-Fi, that is, Master, is far superior to Apple Lossless and Atmos. I have been testing both platforms in that format for a few days and there is no color. The sound in Tidal in that format is much clearer, more spacious and forceful at the same time. Don't even think about subscribing to Apple Music. Greetings"

My Apple Music subscription expired long ago, and so far I don't see a reason to spend money on re-subscribing. Tidal and Amazon HD Music are enough for me.

 

[voodooless]

What a load of fud..

 

[Zensō]

Hello, I'm sorry to tell you that TIDAL Hi-Fi, that is, Master, is far superior to Apple Lossless and Atmos. I have been testing both platforms in that format for a few days and there is no color. The sound in Tidal in that format is much clearer, more spacious and forceful at the same time. Don't even think about subscribing to Apple Music. Greetings"

Uh-huh.

 

[hmscott]

What a load of fud..

Useless comment, but let's go with it anyway

You are correct, the Apple 3.5" Dongle DAC doesn't pass through digital audio, it is a DAC in itself that outputs analog audio output. There is no way there was a valid comparison between his FLAC and Apple Lossless selections with his set up.

Can I listen to lossless audio using the AirPods Max Lightning to 3.5mm Audio Cable?
The Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable was designed to allow AirPods Max to connect to analog sources for listening to movies and music. AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless recordings with exceptional audio quality. However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable, the playback will not be completely lossless.
About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

If you want to enjoy Apple Music Lossless, then you need to find another option to output Apple Lossless music from Apple Devices than the Apple 3.5" Dongle DAC.

Uh-huh.

Another useless comment, and much worse as it misquoted me, here is my post around your inaccurate "quote" again:

I think this guy sums it up best so far:

Miguel Lopez Lluch 55 minutes ago
"Hello, I'm sorry to tell you that TIDAL Hi-Fi, that is, Master, is far superior to Apple Lossless and Atmos. I have been testing both platforms in that format for a few days and there is no color. The sound in Tidal in that format is much clearer, more spacious and forceful at the same time. Don't even think about subscribing to Apple Music. Greetings"

My Apple Music subscription expired long ago, and so far I don't see a reason to spend money on re-subscribing. Tidal and Amazon HD Music are enough for me.

So, I haven't done the comparison myself, but I trust "Miguel's" comparison for now.

For my use this isn't an MQA comparison, it is a Sound Quality comparison, the non-MQA recordings often sound better on Tidal than AMHD- and there are far more non-MQA recordings on Tidal - with no MQA version available.

Comparing Tidal - Masters and non-Masters - Tidal often sounds better than Amazon Music HD, but there are times it is the other way around too. Often due to each service having different version recordings available for that track or album from that artist, but more often due to Tidal's superior streaming service.

Both Tidal and AMHD have complimentary music catalogs too, I find both have recordings the other doesn't often enough to keep both services, rather than only have one service.

If you want to enjoy Apple Music Lossless, or Tidal, or AMHD, then you need to find another option to output Apple Lossless music from Apple Devices than the Apple 3.5" Dongle DAC.

 

[abdo123]

Useless comment, but let's go with it anyway

You are correct, the Apple 3.5" Dongle DACdoesn't pass through digital audio, it is a DAC in itself that outputs analog audio output. There is no way there was a valid comparison between FLAC and Apple Lossless with his set up.

Can I listen to lossless audio using the AirPods Max Lightning to 3.5mm Audio Cable?
The Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable was designed to allow AirPods Max to connect to analog sources for listening to movies and music. AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless recordings with exceptional audio quality. However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable, the playback will not be completely lossless.

Another useless comment, and much worse as it misquoted me, here is my post around that quote again:

So, I haven't done the comparison myself, but I trust "Miguel's" comparison for now.

For my use this isn't an MQA comparison, it is a Sound Quality comparison, the non-MQA recordings often sound better on Tidal than AMHD- and there are far more non-MQA recordings on Tidal - with no MQA version available.

Comparing Tidal - Masters and non-Masters - Tidal often sounds better than Amazon Music HD, but there are times it is the other way around too. Usually due to each service having different recordings available for that track or album from that artist.

Both Tidal and AMHD have complimentary music catalogs too, I find both have recordings the other doesn't often enough to keep both services, rather than only have one service.

If you want to enjoy Apple Music Lossless, then you need to find another option to output Apple Lossless music than the Apple 3.5" Dongle DAC.

Somebody already compared Apple lossless to Qobuz releases and it was bit perfect.

This is just some farce that you're contributing to for no reason.

 

[hmscott]

Somebody already compared Apple lossless to Qobuz releases and it was bit perfect.
This is just some farce that you're contributing to for no reason.

A bit perfect digital comparison is much different than his Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC analog output comparison.

If he had indeed used the digital output from the Apple Devices and then used a DAC capable of decoding the full original digital FLAC / Stream from Apple Lossless Music, then that comparison would have been comparable to the Qobuz / Apple Lossless Music comparison.

I posted his review because it is amusing in it's inaccuracies, not because it was valid. The comment by "Miguel Lopez Lluch" was far more valid that the youtube review using an Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC for the comparison:

Miguel Lopez Lluch 55 minutes ago
"Hello, I'm sorry to tell you that TIDAL Hi-Fi, that is, Master, is far superior to Apple Lossless and Atmos. I have been testing both platforms in that format for a few days and there is no color. The sound in Tidal in that format is much clearer, more spacious and forceful at the same time. Don't even think about subscribing to Apple Music. Greetings"

And, remember, If you want to enjoy Apple Music Lossless, then you need to find a better option to output Apple Lossless music from Apple Devices than the Apple 3.5" Dongle DAC. Use the digital PCM data direct to your own DAC instead.

 

[voodooless]

The Apple dongle is fine up to 24/48, also with lossless audio. The vast majority of content is equal or below this, so I see no issue. And it's $9, and for that, you get excellent performance, so I don't see any reason to complain.

Talking about useless comments: please stop repeating those statements.. the amount of times you post it doesn't give it any more credence.

 

[hmscott]

The Apple dongle is fine up to 24/48, also with lossless audio. The vast majority of content is equal or below this, so I see no issue. And it's $9, and for that, you get excellent performance, so I don't see any reason to complain.

No, the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC is *not* adequate, it is a $9 DAC!!

I realize here on ASR we try to keep people from wasting their money on "Ultra Expensive" DAC's, but you at least want a DAC costing more than $9!

Topping has some really nice inexpensive DAC's, on up to their new D90SE. There are a lot of great DAC's other than the Topping DAC's reviewed here on ASR.

Seriously, you need to spend some more time learning and listening before you make a blanket recommendation that all people need is the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC for their Apple Lossless listening "pleasure".

For reference I use the Topping D90 MQA + A90 or Xduoo TA-20, along with Hifiman HE6SE V2 right now, and other nice headphones of many makes and models. I also wouldn't consider the Apple headphones/*pods* as audiophile quality either.

 

[BellJoan]

$9 is a small price to get something good, so sin to complain!)

 

[voodooless]

Seriously, you need to spend some more time learning and listening before you make a blanket recommendation that all people need is the Apple Dongle DAC for their listening "pleasure"

I never said all people need is an Apple Dongle, nor did I recommend it. All I meant to say is that for 9$, you'll get is a very well-performing device that is more dan adequate to play probably 90% of content on Apple Music losslessly. If you want better, pay more! But stop complaining about the 9$ Apple device that obviously has its limitations

 

[hmscott]

$9 is a small price to get something good, so sin to complain!)

The Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC doesn't have enough power to drive most full sized headphones, if you have sensitive IEM's it might be "good enough"

Review: Apple vs Google USB-C Headphone Adapters

For light mobile use I use the FiiO BTR5 and FiiO BTR3K, and since I bought those a year ago there are a lot more options available. Please look around and find reviews for better DAC's for your Apple Device, for any listening, not only Apple Lossless Music and better. There are a number of newer "Dongle" DAC's that surpass the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC in performance, better for listening to Apple Lossless Music and higher resolution FLAC and Streaming services.

If you really want to get the most out of your Apple Lossless, why settle for a $9 DAC, especially on a $500-$1K+ iPhone or iPad?

I never said all people need is an Apple Dongle, nor did I recommend it. All I meant to say is that for 9$, you'll get is a very well-performing device that is more dan adequate to play probably 90% of content on Apple Music losslessly. If you want better, pay more! But stop complaining about the 9$ Apple device that obviously has its limitations

The focus of my amusement in the original post wasn't to complain as such about the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC, it was to complain about the testing methodology using the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC to attempt to compare FLAC and Apple Lossless Streaming, when Apple themselves don't recommend their 3.5mm Dongle DAC for high resolution headphones, like their own "AirPods Max" Headphones:

"Can I listen to lossless audio using the AirPods Max Lightning to 3.5mm Audio Cable?
The Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable was designed to allow AirPods Max to connect to analog sources for listening to movies and music. AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless recordings with exceptional audio quality. However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable, the playback will not be completely lossless."
About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

If Apple doesn't think their 3.5mm DAC components are good enough to deliver "lossless" quality, why should we?