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Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

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samsa

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[P]eople on the fence about Purifi vs Hypex will likely tend towards the former with "better caps"

That would be ironic.
  1. Almost all the Purifi amplifiers currently on the market use a Hypex SMPS1200, with the same Su'scon capacitors that (some) people are complaining about.
  2. There are extremely good reasons to choose the Purifi amp module over the corresponding nCore one. But the fact that it uses "higher quality" Rubycon caps is probably way down the list.
 

March Audio

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The irony is if hypothetically this thread had none of the March Audio posts of outrage against John's perceived attempts to malign hypex amps and the responses to him (hypothetical, not saying anything should be removed to prevent another perceived slight), this cap thing would be a long-forgotten thing just like it was with NAD.

John would have expressed his opinion that it should have had better caps for the price, gathered a few likes and everybody would have moved on to drooling over the power specs.

No sales to Hypex amps would have been lost to anyone who would actually consider buying one, Apollon Audio's professional conduct and responses would still have gathered a few customers in the future which is unaffected by this Aussie mating ritual between John and March Audio.

All this tedious fuming and stomping has just made readers more aware of the cap issue who will likely more deeply associate Hypex with poorer rated caps (whether sufficient or not) and a discussed issue whenever another Hypex amp is torn down and people on the fence about Purifi vs Hypex will likely tend towards the former with "better caps" and a few likely (some who have expessed this) would reconsider doing business with March Audio. :facepalm:

Not at all we have come to the position now where my points have been justified. There is not one shred of evidence to justify his claims of an inherent reliability/longevity issue with Hypex products - and beleive you me he and some others no doubt have been trying to find it.

You need to check Johns emotive posts, his very direct statements and his previous railings against all things class D. It wasnt just a perception. Apollon have just kept their head down, nothing wrong with that, the sensible thing to do for them as I am making all the necessary points to re-affirm the reliability of their own products. If you think Apollon want to see their products maligned then you are mistaken.

Im actually very glad this has come up. As I said its good to use the science and factual evidence rather than personal (faulty) opinion/speculation. The caps are quite appropriate with a very long expected life.

This will have no negative affect on my business.
 
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Vasr

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That would be ironic.
  1. Almost all the Purifi amplifiers currently on the market use a Hypex SMPS1200, with the same Su'scon capacitors that (some) people are complaining about.
  2. There are extremely good reasons to choose the Purifi amp module over the corresponding nCore one. But the fact that it uses "higher quality" Rubycon caps is probably way down the list.

Indeed. With all the smoke and feathers flying around, that is counter to what I perceived during the discussion and likely others just skimming as well. Perception matters.
 

Vasr

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Not at all we have come to the position now where my points have been justified.

You need to check Johns emotive posts, his very direct statements and his previous railings against all things class D. It wasnt just a perception. Apollon have just kept their head down, nothing wrong with that, the sensible thing to do for them as I am making all the necessary points to re-affirm the reliability of their own products. If you think Apollon want to see their products maligned then you are mistaken.

This will have no negative affect on my business.

If you perceive so, that is the reality to you, I am sure. ;)
 
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Thomas savage

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I think (now it has calmed down a bit) it is a very interesting and valuable topic to investigate. As ASR has done with previous questions such as the merit of op amp rolling. Lets separate the fact from fiction, personal opinion v actual data.
The big question I ask myself from reading this thread is what Amirm would do for a appeal to authority analogy if he were to be a actual doctor..,

His analogy game would be well and truly screwed .
 

March Audio

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If you perceive so, that is the reality to you, I am sure. ;)

Yep, one thing my customers frequently cite as a reason to come to me is my no BS approach.

So how do you perceive the expected life calculation for the specific installation in our P451 amp?

1603615322052.png


3000*2^6= 192000 hrs

Thats 22 years with it on 24/7!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pex-nc2k-amplifier-teardown.16920/post-549647
 
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samsa

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Yep, one thing my customers frequently cite as a reason to come to me is my no BS approach.

So how do you perceive the expected life calculation for the specific installation in our P451 amp?

View attachment 89469

3000*2^6= 192000 hrs

Thats 22 years with it on 24/7!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pex-nc2k-amplifier-teardown.16920/post-549647

Good data, but not quit the right calculation. From your data, T₀=105℃, Tₐ=27℃, Tᵣ=46℃. As to the rated lifetime, IIRC, that's L₀=5000hrs (not 3000hrs),

L = L₀ × 2^((T₀+Tₐ-2Tᵣ)/10℃) = L₀ × 2⁴ = 80000 hrs

Operated 24/7, that 9 years, not 22. More realistically, operated 8hrs/day, that's 27 years of operation.

What needs to be emphasized here is that every piece of electronics will eventually fail. Putting in "premium" capacitors will not increase the expected lifetime of the module (and hence would be a complete #@&$ waste of money) if some other component is liable to fail first.
 

restorer-john

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You need to check Johns emotive posts, his very direct statements and his previous railings against all things class D.

And you need to also check your incredibly disrespectful posts towards, and about me, and now even your host @amirm. :(

As @amirm has stated, both he, myself, and others have praised much of Hypex and Purifi's performance in this thread and in the past. But they need to lift their collective game on component choice. No ifs, buts or maybes. Plenty of people on the fence over Hypex will adopt a wait and see approach and I don't blame them. Plenty of people will read this and see your explosive posts and wonder. I don't blame them either. Others won't care.

But rest assured, when I see my friend with the events hire business which was decimated by Covid19 this year, we'll hopefully photograph and show all the written off Hypex plate amplifiers in his powered large stand mounted speakers, which use the EXACT same Su'scon capacitors (NC500 amp based) in the Hypex SMPSs we are talking about in this thread. The ones that bulged and vented in normal use last year and cost him a ton of money in on-site replacements at inopportune times. No wonder he went to JBL equipment, as in his words it was "totally indestructible".
 

restorer-john

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Good data, but not quit the right calculation. From your data, T₀=105℃, Tₐ=27℃, Tᵣ=46℃. As to the rated lifetime, IIRC, that's L₀=5000hrs (not 3000hrs),

L = L₀ × 2^((T₀+Tₐ-2Tᵣ)/10℃) = L₀ × 2⁴ = 80000 hrs

Operated 24/7, that 9 years, not 22. More realistically, operated 8hrs/day, that's 27 years of operation.

The estimation is also not remotely accurate without a rated vs actual ripple current figure in any case, something @March Audio doesn't seem to understand either.
 

Thomas savage

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This going round in endless circles while becoming more aggravated ( this includes passive aggressive behaviour) makes us all look like nut cases .

can we please get off the ring road and take a new road please , what effect do we think saying the exact same thing over and over really has ?
 

restorer-john

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And what is the rated ripple current for the caps in question?

Ask Alan. He's using the SMPSs and the amplifiers. He'll know the rated, actual, and typical use numbers for the caps, the implementation and whether they are conservative or not. He can give specifics.

Personally, I think it will all stack up nicely for a reasonable life...on paper. It's the real world where it all falls apart. We'll find that out in years to come I guess.

But as our ever tolerant moderator @Thomas savage has said, we are going around in circles. I'm happy to put it all to bed tonight and move on in a new, more positive direction tomorrow. :)
 

March Audio

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And you need to also check your incredibly disrespectful posts towards, and about me, and now even your host @amirm. :(

As @amirm has stated, both he, myself, and others have praised much of Hypex and Purifi's performance in this thread and in the past. But they need to lift their collective game on component choice. No ifs, buts or maybes. Plenty of people on the fence over Hypex will adopt a wait and see approach and I don't blame them. Plenty of people will read this and see your explosive posts and wonder. I don't blame them either. Others won't care.

But rest assured, when I see my friend with the events hire business which was decimated by Covid19 this year, we'll hopefully photograph and show all the written off Hypex plate amplifiers in his powered large stand mounted speakers, which use the EXACT same Su'scon capacitors (NC500 amp based) in the Hypex SMPSs we are talking about in this thread. The ones that bulged and vented in normal use last year and cost him a ton of money in on-site replacements at inopportune times. No wonder he went to JBL equipment, as in his words it was "totally indestructible".

John, when you refuse to acknowledge or respond to reasonable questions and points (this is a fundamentally disrespectful behaviour) and just repeat your dogma, that what you personally experienced must be true universally the case, you lose any right to expect a respectful response AFAIAC.

Yet again you dont seem to acknowledge the basics. This has already been covered. Even If your latest anecdote is correct this doesnt mean there is a fundamental or universal problem.

As @samsa pointed out above the number of failures in itself is meaningless. You need to compare this to how many modules are there out in the field. As was pointed out previously, Hypex are "pooping" out 100000 modules a year. Second question is what were the operating conditions of these amps? You just cant extrapolate this into a universal conclusion.
 
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March Audio

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March Audio

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Ask Alan. He's using the SMPSs and the amplifiers. He'll know the rated, actual, and typical use numbers for the caps, the implementation and whether they are conservative or not. He can give specifics.

Personally, I think it will all stack up nicely for a reasonable life...on paper. It's the real world where it all falls apart. We'll find that out in years to come I guess.

But as our ever tolerant moderator @Thomas savage has said, we are going around in circles. I'm happy to put it all to bed tonight and move on in a new, more positive direction tomorrow. :)

But you simply dont know that John WRT the Hypex amps, you just cant extrapolate in this way.
 

March Audio

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Good data, but not quit the right calculation. From your data, T₀=105℃, Tₐ=27℃, Tᵣ=46℃. As to the rated lifetime, IIRC, that's L₀=5000hrs (not 3000hrs),

L = L₀ × 2^((T₀+Tₐ-2Tᵣ)/10℃) = L₀ × 2⁴ = 80000 hrs

Operated 24/7, that 9 years, not 22. More realistically, operated 8hrs/day, that's 27 years of operation.

What needs to be emphasized here is that every piece of electronics will eventually fail. Putting in "premium" capacitors will not increase the expected lifetime of the module (and hence would be a complete #@&$ waste of money) if some other component is liable to fail first.

I did say it surprised me and questioned if it was right, but it was the equation we used earlier. :)

Indeed, especially when you see that comment on the bottom of the Rubycon datasheet.

The equation to estimate life expectancy is based on our accelerated test data; however, the Estimated life calculated using the equation includes a margin of error. Therefore, we recommend that designers allow an ample safety factor between the result of the equation and the designed service life.

In the event that the result of the estimation exceeds 15 years, we recommend that 15 years be taken as the maximum service life.
 
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March Audio

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This going round in endless circles while becoming more aggravated ( this includes passive aggressive behaviour) makes us all look like nut cases .

can we please get off the ring road and take a new road please , what effect do we think saying the exact same thing over and over really has ?
There really is nothing further to discuss. So its ended are far as Im concerned.
 

Universal Cereal Bus

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The irony is if hypothetically this thread had none of the March Audio posts of outrage against John's perceived attempts to malign hypex amps and the responses to him (hypothetical, not saying anything should be removed to prevent another perceived slight), this cap thing would be a long-forgotten thing just like it was with NAD.

John would have expressed his opinion that it should have had better caps for the price, gathered a few likes and everybody would have moved on to drooling over the power specs.

No sales to Hypex amps would have been lost to anyone who would actually consider buying one, Apollon Audio's professional conduct and responses would still have gathered a few customers in the future which is unaffected by this Aussie mating ritual between John and March Audio.

All this tedious fuming and stomping has just made readers more aware of the cap issue who will likely more deeply associate Hypex with poorer rated caps (whether sufficient or not) and a discussed issue whenever another Hypex amp is torn down and people on the fence about Purifi vs Hypex will likely tend towards the former with "better caps" and a few likely (some who have expessed this) would reconsider doing business with March Audio. :facepalm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

I'm a Wikipedia donor and respect the integrity of their articles so I'm definitely NOT suggesting someone else add an entry under the Streisand effect article to document this thread. ("In October 2020, a teardown of a hifi amplifier in a forum post...")
 
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