Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[Vasr]

Trust me, manufactures do not pay insurance for this.

Trust me, they do. I am a risk management professional. This is my business.

This is a perfect example of a futile internet argument based on digging one's heels over ambiguous communication.

All manufacturers pay insurance for warranty work : FALSE
No manufacturers pay insurance for warranty work: FALSE

As much as the recent cap debate was cast as an argument over objective data and statistics, it is much more an outcome of poor communication skills, poor social skills, ego, self-unawareness, biases, vested interests, over-generalization, cherry-picking data, talking the book and simply knee-jerking. None of which have anything to do with science or engineering.

I don't see any inherent contradiction between wanting that TOTL SINAD number well beyond human audibility and wanting the best regarded components with a lifetime far beyond one's lifetime. As a consumer I have a choice of what I value in a product for the money I pay just as manufacturers have a choice of what components to use. Measurements and specs are just a starting point. No amount of left-brained arguments are going to tweak that.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Maybe Purifi will obviate this issue by marketing a suitable SMPS for their excellent Class D module.

I believe that Purifi has indicated that an in-house power supply is coming.

I wonder if they will ever release an integrated amplifier/power supply similar to the Icepower modules.

 

[Vasr]

^ this

Second.

 

[amirm]

To be fair, I wouldn't have expected a warranty at all for their B2B segment.

I was not talking about the warranty part. But the section where it says after 5 years you are on your own.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I was not talking about the warranty part. But the section where it says after 5 years you are on your own.

And that’s just weird, IMHO.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Or just as common, they could purchase an insurance product with a very high SIR so that a TPA handles the claims while the company self-insures until the SIR is met.

The issue with Bryston is their 20 year warranty. I’d be extremely surprised if it was not backed by some sort of insurance product.

As far as Hypex, they have a two year warranty and after five years, they won’t even repair the product. I do not think warranty claims would be a huge expense for them under those conditions.

I have some doubt that Hypex will actually "repair the product" -- it's very likely both cheaper and more expeditious for them to send out a complete replacement module from stock instead, especially if warranty claims are few and far between.

 

[Jinjuku]

I was not talking about the warranty part. But the section where it says after 5 years you are on your own.

Ask Dell to service a desktop after 5 years. You're on your own.

These amp's are at commodity prices. Expect commodity service.

Now if the market will forgive a manufacture for having a $1200 amp with say three years and a $7000 version with 20 years then we have a different ball game.

Based on this thread I think one manufacturer will be allowed this in the market place but another will get called out on it.

 

[amirm]

Ask Dell to service a desktop after 5 years. You're on your own.

These amp's are at commodity prices. Expect commodity service.

Why would I worry about a computer that obsoletes fast compared to an amplifier that does not? Here is a promotion Crown is running right now:

That is one year longer than the entire support period from Hypex! And heaven knows they sell their amps at commodity prices.

Unless they think some parts will go out of product altogether, they need to provide longer support. It is not like they have do that work for free. They can charge what they want.

 

[amirm]

Now if the market will forgive a manufacture for having a $1200 amp with say three years and a $7000 version with 20 years then we have a different ball game.

Once more.. the Byrston is sold through a channel that takes as much as 50% of that cost. It has local dealers which handle managing that heavy amplifier warranty support back and forth so you don't have to. No way you can compare a direct to consumer model to what they have.

Remember, the amp in this thread is $2,400 for each channel or $5,000 for stereo. It is not a cheap purchase to throw away in 5 years because Hypex refuses to fix anything in it.

As a practical matter, I am not as worried but come on, practices like this need a strong light on them to disinfect.

 

[Vasr]

These amp's are at commodity prices. Expect commodity service.

I am not sure what definition you are using for "commodity price".

Are you using it as a synonym for "cheap"? Or the more accurate "commoditized" product price (which means very little differentiation between products from multiple vendors) which isn't necessarily cheap.

Is commodity service a synonym for stripped down service?

None of the above support your assertion.

Level of service depends on margins and pricing power not on absolute price or value provided. I have no idea what the margins are in this Hypex integration business.

There is an inherent inefficiency in the Hypex business model because of extra middlemen. Margins for the module manufacturer to produce for Hypex, margins for Hypex to provide the modules to integrator and margins for the integrator/brand label.

Traditional amp makers who create their own designs have only two of those so, in theory, can afford to provide better service at cheaper prices.

 

[Jinjuku]

Why would I worry about a computer that obsoletes fast compared to an amplifier that does not? Here is a promotion Crown is running right now:

That is one year longer than the entire support period from Hypex! And heaven knows they sell their amps at commodity prices.

Unless they think some parts will go out of product altogether, they need to provide longer support. It is not like they have do that work for free. They can charge what they want.

Then buy the Crown but lose the measurement race. This isn't apples to apples is it however? You can't keep picking and choosing: $7000 amps from Bryston or $399 amps from Crown?

I've an HP Z420 workstation from 2013. Still runs fine (I had to redo the heat sink paste and replace the power supply fan). I've a Celeron based Lenovo from 2016 that I just put in the recycle. I've still got 3-4 years of good service left in the Z420. Costs and build quality not even comparable.

So again why is Bryston allowed to charge $7000 for an amp and you want to toss a outfit like Apollo or March $200 for caps?

 

[amirm]

This smacks of olden day calls for audiofool cabling versus actually looking at the requirements of those cables and using no more then what's needed.

If regular cables did not last and fancy ones did, I sure as heck would recommend the fancy ones. The problem is that regular cables last as long so that benefit is not there and neither is applicability of your analogy as a result.

Additionally, a doctor doesn't base his diagnosis of his current patient on his previous patients different issues. Particularly when the doctor is actually a vet, and his current patient is a snake while all his previous ones were wombats. He's got actual training, data, and real research at hand, as opposed to hunches based on things he's seen in the past.

Every person *is* different. Take the current pandemic and the effect one everyone. It is not the same. As my doctor once said, "everything is a shade of gray in medicine. There is no black and white as you engineers like it to be." What they do is make highly educated guesses as to what is wrong with you and what could help you.

Finally, survivorship bias is exactly why it isn't interesting that old amplifiers are still around, anecdotally this is a "great tale gramps", but doesn't provide us real input on lifetime of operation. The very fact that this isn't obvious and immediately discarded as potential evidence before it's even brought up is exactly why technicians don't rate as engineers. It's like listening to the nurse instead of the doctor because she's "boots on the ground".

The heck you are talking about? I am an engineer and I have post videos of other engineers cringing the moment they see cheap caps in any product. No experienced design engineer would willingly use lower grade capacitor unless pressured to hit a BOM (part cost) target. We are talking about the most basics of basic rules of electronic reliability here. Electrolytic caps are some of the worst parts in any design when it comes to reliability. Where we can we want to minimize their risks.

Electrolytic caps in these designs have a super tough life. The ones in switching power supply get hit hard. Mains AC is rectified (two humps instead of one positive and one negative) and that high voltage needs to be filtered to resemble DC. The rest of the circuit then switches on and off with vengeance causing sudden draw on those caps. This is very different in a linear power supply where a transformer is used to lower the voltage first before conversion to DC.

 

[amirm]

Then buy the Crown but lose the measurement race.

No, those are not my only choices. I can raise visibility of corners being cut in the hope of the manufacturer improving their products in the future. That way we don't have to decide between best measured performance and reliability.

 

[Jinjuku]

Once more.. the Byrston is sold through a channel that takes as much as 50% of that cost. It has local dealers which handle managing that heavy amplifier warranty support back and forth so you don't have to. No way you can compare a direct to consumer model to what they have.

Remember, the amp in this thread is $2,400 for each channel or $5,000 for stereo. It is not a cheap purchase to throw away in 5 years because Hypex refuses to fix anything in it.

As a practical matter, I am not as worried but come on, practices like this need a strong light on them to disinfect.

Bryston 4B is 900 watts / 8 ohm mono for $6800, or as you put it, $13,600 for stereo.

Bryston's 50% cost in the distribution channel is a Bryston problem. Not a Hypex problem. Comparative end costs are still the same regardless of direct sales, oem manufacturer, or the money wedge that authorized reseller represents.

 

[Jinjuku]

I am not sure what definition you are using for "commodity price".

Bryston... Comparatively

 

[Jinjuku]

Are you using it as a synonym for "cheap"? Or the more accurate "commoditized" product price (which means very little differentiation between products from multiple vendors) which isn't necessarily cheap.

Is commodity service a synonym for stripped down service?

Commodity means low margin. Also I'm not the one that brought Bryston up. I doubt very much that the Apollo amp has the same margin at $13,600 of Bryston.

Also I can't brook the argument of comparing it to $399 Crown (which is normally a 1 year warranty and the promotion is till March) when from a measurement stand point they are worlds apart.

If people can keep moving the goal posts to prop up their POV so can anyone else.

 

[Jinjuku]

No, those are not my only choices. I can raise visibility of corners being cut in the hope of the manufacturer improving their products in the future. That way we don't have to decide between best measured performance and reliability.

Amir, you get what you pay for. Why don't you tear down a $200 pc and a $2000 pc and moan about the shortcuts taken?

I agree in getting the best measuring, most reliable gear you can get. It's the iron triangle of business: Get it done right, get it done cheap, get it done fast, pick two.

You have a criteria of well measuring and long lasting. The market it full of choices. Some of them may not be 800 watt amps at $2400 a channel.

I'm appreciative of the tear down. I understand what these potential component choices make. I also understand I have my options. What I'm not going to do is complain. If I don't like the engine in a Ford I'll look at a Toyota.

Fords a big company and make their own market decisions.

 

[amirm]

So again why is Bryston allowed to charge $7000 for an amp and you want to toss a outfit like Apollo or March $200 for caps?

A Bryston amp is considerably more expensive for them to produce as the entire design is custom. They did not buy a couple of modules and put them in a lightweight box. You can't keep comparing them. Here are the guts of the Byrston $4k amp:

The case plus shipping to the dealer likely will cost as much as a Hypex amp module! So yes, they cost more money to design and sell. They have to feed a lot more people with each one. And they provided incredible warranty to support their products.

 

[Vasr]

Unless they think some parts will go out of product altogether, they need to provide longer support. It is not like they have do that work for free. They can charge what they want.

Not sure if the root cause is to be directed at Hypex or Apollon.

Smaller integrators like Apollon are beholden to Hypex because there are no substitute parts from multiple vendors like say in a PC or an Automobile. They don't necessarily have the ability to repair or replace something if Hypex doesn't guarantee stock replacement modules after some period of time. Debugging and replacing individual components on a board will be limited in scope and very expensive to do for them to support a business model. Charging huge amounts for after-warranty service impacts customer satisfaction and so brand reputation. So there is a limit to how much they can charge.

I don't know what guarantee Hypex provides to these integrators on availability of replacement modules. If it is only 5 years then it would be foolish for Apollon to take on that liability beyond that period.

If bigger vendors like NAD or Crown use such modules, they can replace the entire unit with their latest model (or an equivalent model) at the time than service it at great expense if replacements are not available. They typically build their margins (by volume or unit cost) to take that into account. But even they have limits on whether they will provide/stock parts for servicing much less than say auto manufacturers. Smaller businesses without that kind of volume or pricing power cannot afford to.

I am not disagreeing that something at this price range should have longer guarantees of serviceability. That is definitely something customers should take into account. And so I agree with shining a light on this.

Fundamental problem here seems to be Hypex following an Apple like implicit obsolescence model for hardware and being able to do so given the dominance in this space. Hypex doing an ARM like licensing model would be better for consumers and channels but not as lucrative for Hypex.

 

[amirm]

Amir, you get what you pay for.

Not here. I am willing to pay more as are others for better caps. But the option is not provided by the supplier who can do so the cheapest (Hypex). Upgrading after the fact is made much harder by a) gluing the caps and b) using small form factor caps, tightly put next to each other.