Except you did carry on , and what we now need is someone to not play ' last word Olympics ' .
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Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown
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tw99
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Maybe I can add a perspective as a Hypex/March Audio customer.
These discussions are extremely unedifying, and don't show anyone (John, Amir, Alan) in a good light really. All points have been made, so if you can't agree on a conclusion then just stop posting !
As far as the capacitor quality issue goes, I bought my March p502 amp on the expectation it would last as long as any typical piece of modern consumer electronics. My previous amp was a more expensive class A/B design from a respected UK manaufacturer, and that had two failures in 8 years. If the March amp does better than that it's a win in my book. For what I paid for it, I wouldn't really expect it to last 20 years.
There doesn't seem to be much noise about Hypex failures on the internet, so I'm reasonably confident it will last "long enough", and in the meantime I'm very happy with the price/performance.
These discussions are extremely unedifying, and don't show anyone (John, Amir, Alan) in a good light really. All points have been made, so if you can't agree on a conclusion then just stop posting !
As far as the capacitor quality issue goes, I bought my March p502 amp on the expectation it would last as long as any typical piece of modern consumer electronics. My previous amp was a more expensive class A/B design from a respected UK manaufacturer, and that had two failures in 8 years. If the March amp does better than that it's a win in my book. For what I paid for it, I wouldn't really expect it to last 20 years.
There doesn't seem to be much noise about Hypex failures on the internet, so I'm reasonably confident it will last "long enough", and in the meantime I'm very happy with the price/performance.
DS23MAN
Active Member
Suscon is a very serious company:
http://www.su-scon.com.tw/Templates/att/2020-su'scon intro-ENG-.pdf?lng=en
And they do not produce bad caps as stated at Tomshardware without any proof.
Hypex is using Suscon for 7 years now and the failure rate is extremely low ( 1 cap at a custom project after 100.000pcs productionrun).
All caps are sample tested and are always within spec and are delivered directly from the factory.
http://www.su-scon.com.tw/Templates/att/2020-su'scon intro-ENG-.pdf?lng=en
And they do not produce bad caps as stated at Tomshardware without any proof.
Hypex is using Suscon for 7 years now and the failure rate is extremely low ( 1 cap at a custom project after 100.000pcs productionrun).
All caps are sample tested and are always within spec and are delivered directly from the factory.
This smacks of olden day calls for audiofool cabling versus actually looking at the requirements of those cables and using no more then what's needed.
Additionally, a doctor doesn't base his diagnosis of his current patient on his previous patients different issues. Particularly when the doctor is actually a vet, and his current patient is a snake while all his previous ones were wombats. He's got actual training, data, and real research at hand, as opposed to hunches based on things he's seen in the past.
Finally, survivorship bias is exactly why it isn't interesting that old amplifiers are still around, anecdotally this is a "great tale gramps", but doesn't provide us real input on lifetime of operation. The very fact that this isn't obvious and immediately discarded as potential evidence before it's even brought up is exactly why technicians don't rate as engineers. It's like listening to the nurse instead of the doctor because she's "boots on the ground".
Additionally, a doctor doesn't base his diagnosis of his current patient on his previous patients different issues. Particularly when the doctor is actually a vet, and his current patient is a snake while all his previous ones were wombats. He's got actual training, data, and real research at hand, as opposed to hunches based on things he's seen in the past.
Finally, survivorship bias is exactly why it isn't interesting that old amplifiers are still around, anecdotally this is a "great tale gramps", but doesn't provide us real input on lifetime of operation. The very fact that this isn't obvious and immediately discarded as potential evidence before it's even brought up is exactly why technicians don't rate as engineers. It's like listening to the nurse instead of the doctor because she's "boots on the ground".
I have four UcD 180 (two AD and two HG), two UcD 180HG with HxR, two UcD 400HG and four NC500MP. The first four are, from 2008, in my car, amplifiying 4 ohm speakers at ambient temperatures from -15 to 50+ °C, the others UcD are in my car from 2012 and the last four NC are in my home from about two years. till now I had no failures at all
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Cmon... That's hardly fair. Sauce that taste good on goose taste just as good on gander.
I’ve had a quick peek at the caps of my old ones, they are definitely different to the ones you can find on pictures right now.. mine are light blue with a 3 pointed star on top.
Exactly. And when it fails in 10+ years, just recap it and life goes on. No big deal.
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Amir, I want to point out, what I believe to be, a large hypocrisy:
Bryston can charge $7000 for an amp and your willing to toss someone else $200. And to answer the sure to be stated point: No Bryston wasn't created on day 8.
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Honestly this sounds like a business opportunity. Offer a Hi-Cap version of this product with additional heatsinking where you can Charge $4000 and offer 10 year warranty.
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That's easy. If everything need said is said close the thread.
That's naive.
Trust me, they do. I am a risk management professional. This is my business.
sam_adams
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Not wanting to get in between anybody in this donnybrook, but, does anybody remember this?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
Bad chemistry plus industrial espionage equals major problem.
The takeaway there is that good caps require good chemists, good materials scientists, and good engineers. Otherwise, bzzzt, poof!
If you want to look at the specs of the caps in the Hypex products:
The large caps are HZ series:
http://www.su-scon.com.tw/Templates/att/HZ.pdf?lng=en
The smaller ones are SK series:
http://www.su-scon.com.tw/Templates/att/SK.pdf?lng=en
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
Bad chemistry plus industrial espionage equals major problem.
The takeaway there is that good caps require good chemists, good materials scientists, and good engineers. Otherwise, bzzzt, poof!
If you want to look at the specs of the caps in the Hypex products:
The large caps are HZ series:
http://www.su-scon.com.tw/Templates/att/HZ.pdf?lng=en
The smaller ones are SK series:
http://www.su-scon.com.tw/Templates/att/SK.pdf?lng=en
For example, the largest insurance company in the world, AIG, provides warranty insurance to manufacturers.
The fact you are a businessperson yet don’t understand this standard practice leaves me dumbfounded.
https://www.aig.com/business/insurance/warranty
To be fair, I wouldn't have expected a warranty at all for their B2B segment. Those are parts of a finished products, The manufacturer that buy these modules or PSU can literally do anything they want with them. I'll look into it because I have a fail module on hand, and to me the reflex was just to right away just order an other one, Might be just past the one year, wish I saw that before. Now, saying that, I have no idea what are the standard practice for oem components, but it sincerely never crossed my mind to claim a warranty, for me in this business waranties concern the end user, for anything in between you of course only pay for stuff that is not DOA,, but once you bought it included it in your product I would have tought the actual manufacturer is responsible of what he uses inside the box, but apparently I'm wrong.
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And going on and on about potential product failure with no data isn't. Got it.
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Maybe Purifi will obviate this issue by marketing a suitable SMPS for their excellent Class D module.
To insure or to (in effect) self-insure is common business calculation that can be applied to everything from warranty coverage to shipping options. If a manufacturer's warranty return rate is relatively low, it's cheaper to self-insure and just absorb what amount to a very infrequent expenses -- it's just that simple.
To insure or to (in effect) self-insure is common business calculation that can be applied to everything from warranty coverage to shipping options. If a manufacturer's warranty return rate is relatively low, it's cheaper to self-insure and just absorb what amount to a very infrequent expenses -- it's just that simple.
^ this
Or just as common, they could purchase an insurance product with a very high SIR so that a TPA handles the claims while the company self-insures until the SIR is met.
The issue with Bryston is their 20 year warranty. I’d be extremely surprised if it was not backed by some sort of insurance product.
As far as Hypex, they have a two year warranty and after five years, they won’t even repair the product. I do not think warranty claims would be a huge expense for them under those conditions.
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