Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[stunta]

If I’m very honest with a cap upgrade the amp measures and sounds the same as with stock caps. The main difference is that the SAMHWA caps which are stock on most Hypex modules have a lifespan of around 5.000 hours and the Rubycon or Nichicon caps that we use have a lifespan of around 20.000 hours. The only caps that make a difference are the output caps on NC2K, NC500 and NC400 modules. Originally Hypex was using very good Polypropylene caps from WIMA on NC2K and NC400 modules. This is not the case anymore. Now they use far cheaper output caps. The only module that still has the very good output caps is the NC1200. I believe that because of the output caps that are used nowadays on the NC400 module for instance, it doesn’t measure as good anymore like it measured in the ASR review.

Thanks for this. Too bad this didn't end the discussion. A couple of questions:

• Do the Purifi modules use the better caps?
• Does the lifespan include idle time? I leave my amps ON all the time, so this is worrying.
• Did the launch timing of Purifi modules happen to coincide with the downgrade of caps on those Hypex modules?

Thank you @amirm for the teardown and thanks to whoever noticed the downgraded caps. At least now its clear what Hypex has been up to and helps me reach two conclusions - which modules to choose/avoid and which manufacturers (assemblers) to avoid/choose.

 

[dfuller]

Do the Purifi modules use the better caps?

The purifi modules themselves do use Rubycons as I understand it. The Hypex power supplies most PuriFi based amps use have the same Su'scon and/or Aishi caps that have been so hotly discussed here.

Does the lifespan include idle time? I leave my amps ON all the time, so this is worrying.

Yes, at least with the power supply.

 

[Vasr]

There are huge savings in fixed cost in not making your own developpment. Plus yes Hypex get its margins, but they have volume, a manufacturer that would like to produce like 500-1000 amplifiers (Already a very decent number) can't get that done for what Hypex can manage, so even if they take their margin, it's not automatically more expensive, not for small manufacturers anyway.

You are correct but I was making a different point and not whether it is better for small companies like Apollon who likely can't build on their own unless they have a lot of volume and have established supply chain relationships. It was in the context of margins available to fold-in higher customer service, repairs, warranties, longer after-warranty serviceability periods. etc.

More people dip into the margins, less money there is to expense higher customer service costs. Because of the smaller scale, the small boutique firms can provide reasonable personable custom service with the top guys themselves "manning the phones" but it doesn't scale if the margins aren't there nor can they take on long term overhang for serviceability. Whether Hypex passes on the savings from their economy of scale to the integrators is a different question.

Brands like NAD, Parasound, ATI, etc., who have Class D products in their line-up can likely build them far cheaper than Hypex given their total manufacturing volumes and supply chain relationships. This capital-inefficient business model from Hypex (which works in Hypex favor) does not help these brands and may even dissuade other brands like that from going Hypex route if the margins available are too small for their operations. I would bet even the Toppings can build these cheaper than Hypex if they were licensed to do so to put out their own products. They can use the saved margins from one less entity in the supply chain to offer better warranties, support, longer serviceability than 5 years max, etc.

Having Hypex supply the boards themselves gives them greater control, upsell potential, to plan obsolescence, etc., but it also commoditizes the integrators with not much scope for differentiation other than fancy boxes, connectors and cables. We have already seen a practical limitation in component selection. So there are some downsides to this capital-inefficient arrangement for everyone from channels to consumers from the constraints placed.

 

[Vasr]

Thanks for this. Too bad this didn't end the discussion.

At least now its clear what Hypex has been up to and helps me reach two conclusions - which modules to choose/avoid and which manufacturers (assemblers) to avoid/choose.

Agreed. Apollon is the clear (and only) winner here in this thread.

 

[StefaanE]

No. We are asking that McDonald's pay better attention to safety standards so we don't get sick from eating their burgers.

But the argument here is that apparently, we don’t get sick from eating at McDonald’s and that they do comply with all the relevant standards. It’s more like “if they would use better beef I might consider eating there even if that means paying 10% more”. Plus that sometimes, the meat from better cuts at pricier restaurants also falls foul of the sanitary standards.
What I do know is that when here in Luxembourg the restaurants re-opened a while ago, there was a queue in front of a McDonald’s, and a couple of late reservations for a local high-class eatery . Go figure.

 

[amirm]

But the argument here is that apparently, we don’t get sick from eating at McDonald’s and that they do comply with all the relevant standards.

The people making that argument just assert it. That doesn't make it true.

Really, this is not an obscure topic or one subjected to debate. Electrolytic capacitors are major source of electronic failures. It is our weakest point in solid state electronics. We use them because we have to, not because we want to. Watch this short video by Dave Jones again on what these caps are about. And stay there until 2:47 when he advises to get good quality ones:

He is giving lessons to junior engineers here.

 

[Thomas savage]

Thanks for this. Too bad this didn't end the discussion. A couple of questions:

• Do the Purifi modules use the better caps?
• Does the lifespan include idle time? I leave my amps ON all the time, so this is worrying.
• Did the launch timing of Purifi modules happen to coincide with the downgrade of caps on those Hypex modules?

Thank you @amirm for the teardown and thanks to whoever noticed the downgraded caps. At least now its clear what Hypex has been up to and helps me reach two conclusions - which modules to choose/avoid and which manufacturers (assemblers) to avoid/choose.

@Apollon Audio sadly seems one of few mature individual involved here .

Reading through this is beyond embarrassing .

The mind boggles , respect is lost and the whole format of audio forums becomes questionable when so many behave like this .

It's a grand waste of everyone's time , just as self indulgent and pointless as any subjective based discussion iv read elsewhere.

 

[StefaanE]

The people making that argument just assert it. That doesn't make it true.

Thanks for the video, I've had my share of blown caps, mostly on PC motherboards and power supplies.

That being said, and as far as I know, McDonald's doesn't have more sanitary issues than higher-class eateries, and their kitchens often are more hygienic than "better" restaurants. It's just that I don't like their food, and I only went there to please my kids, and we never got sick. Absent any hard data, the conclusion must be that they are doing enough to ensure people eating their stuff are safe. It thus becomes purely a matter of taste. And as they say in the classics -- de gustibus, coloribus, mulieribusque non disputandum.

 

[March Audio]

@Apollon Audio sadly seems one of few mature individual involved here .

Reading through this is beyond embarrassing .

The mind boggles , respect is lost and the whole format of audio forums becomes questionable when so many behave like this .

It's a grand waste of everyone's time , just as self indulgent and pointless as any subjective based discussion iv read elsewhere.

Indeed it has been very much a subjectivist type of argument. If this was any other topic such as discussing the subjective merits and sound of a range of products and someone harping on about how one sounds better than the other without controls, data or evidence it would have been laughed at.

Apparently this subject is different. We dont need data and we dont need supporting information. Someones opinion is apparently enough.

Thats not science and yes it is a grand waste of time.

 

[March Audio]

The people making that argument just assert it. That doesn't make it true.

Really, this is not an obscure topic or one subjected to debate. Electrolytic capacitors are major source of electronic failures. It is our weakest point in solid state electronics. We use them because we have to, not because we want to. Watch this short video by Dave Jones again on what these caps are about. And stay there until 2:47 when he advises to get good quality ones:

He is giving lessons to junior engineers here.

No its not obscure or subjected to debate. Of course caps are a major source of failure. That is not in question. What is in question is the assertions and generalisations made that dont have any supportable evidence and basis.

Yes Dave says avoid fakes and get good caps, he makes no comment on what brands.

So Amir you need to show some information that supports a good / bad quality cap choice in specific applications, designs and products. Equally just because you say its so doesnt make it true.

Im intrigued by the fact that with any other debate of this nature by now you would have delivered a ream of supporting documentation.

 

[March Audio]

But the argument here is that apparently, we don’t get sick from eating at McDonald’s and that they do comply with all the relevant standards. It’s more like “if they would use better beef I might consider eating there even if that means paying 10% more”. Plus that sometimes, the meat from better cuts at pricier restaurants also falls foul of the sanitary standards.
What I do know is that when here in Luxembourg the restaurants re-opened a while ago, there was a queue in front of a McDonald’s, and a couple of late reservations for a local high-class eatery . Go figure.

Good analogy. ASR has gone subjectivist

 

[Thomas savage]

Indeed it has been very much a subjectivist type of argument. If this was any other topic such as discussing the subjective merits and sound of a range of products and someone harping on about how one sounds better than the other without controls, data or evidence it would have been laughed at.

Apparently this subject is different. We dont need data and we dont need supporting information. Someones opinion is apparently enough.

Thats not science and yes it is a grand waste of time.

The threads a monument to self harming behaviour and a race to the bottom, "how can we give away our earned respect".

You seem to think you've maintained some hight ground in the debate Alan , well good luck with that idea lol . You have also received some low blows Alan , thats disappointing and I'm sorry for that .

This issue was recognised and delt with by @Apollon Audio a very long way back in the thread , all you have done Alan is create a huge mess over nothing and made yourself look bad but your not the only one to be caught up behaving like a nut case .

What must reasonable minded folks think , this threads a good example as to why this place has a reputation like it dose , many of you are undermining the whole mission of ASR in the way you've chosen to behave. It's single act of huge self harm , and just makes it so easy for people to dismiss what we do here .

I for one have totally given up on this forum format, Amirm would be better served sharing the data over YouTube and linking it up to as many social media platforms as possible while limiting his time on these kinds of ' debates ' .

Little of what goes on here helps amirm's work imo

My last act as moderator to all of you is shutting this thread , I could issue reply bans but I can't see anything of value to be added .

This @Apollon Audio amp is brilliant, it's brilliantly put together, it's brilliant value and the guy s clearly reasonable and healthy minded.

Hypex amp modules represent a mile stone in performance regardless of cost , it's a public service to offer them at the cost they do , in the various ways they do and I for one am hugely grateful to them and @March Audio for putting together such a well thought out and quality package with the amps of his I have .

Some advice, please consider you all represent a minority in audio , it's naturally a hard sell and it's important we all do our bit to further real performance and reliability in audio. We have to work together as we are up against a much larger force .

Cheers

And cheerio!