Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[amirm]

As I said further back in the thread, put pressure on Hypex to implement a better standard of components and this discussion will never occur again.

If we get more of their OEMs to call and inquire about this, it may bring about a change. I know I would pay $200 more for this amplifier if it came with better caps from the factory. This kind of visibility exists in computer power supply world so companies have responded. Same may happen here.

 

[PeteL]

These amps are not top of the line as amps go John. They may be so within their own lines but not among amplifiers in general. My switching amplifier produces 1000 watts but costs US $25,000! Here are its guts:

You can see your coke sized capacitors now. My amp uses a linear power supply by the way so weighs a ton (around 120 pounds from what I recall).

I personally call a $2,300 amp producing 2 KW of power a budget amp.

What is this beauty? Would test it here?

 

[March Audio]

Ish, very hard to have a business with 2.5 times BOM, maybe on a online only straight from manufacturer, with no R&D at all and limited marketing, but for the very vast majority of products out there, I´d silde those numbers to 4x to 6x+ this would be much more realistic.

Indeed

 

[amirm]

Again you are making the mistake of extrapolating your personal experience with different products, with different specific components, running under different operating conditions. You can't do that. Its completely erroneous to do so.

Hmmm. I think every electronic failure these days starts by taking the top off and looking for bad electrolytic caps. It is that routine of a failure point. The caps have become the least reliable part of electronics today. So general consensus can be applied here.

In my testing we advocate the last bit of design performance. I don't think we need to make an exception when it comes to build quality. We should push companies to deliver on both. Few things are worse than a power amp failing. If my DAC fails, I have quick and cheap solutions. Not so for a $2000 amplifier.

 

[amirm]

What is this beauty? Would test it here?

One of these days, yes. It is the Mark Levinson No 53. It is just too darn heavy to move around to test.

 

[March Audio]

If we get more of their OEMs to call and inquire about this, it may bring about a change. I know I would pay $200 more for this amplifier if it came with better caps from the factory. This kind of visibility exists in computer power supply world so companies have responded. Same may happen here.

However that's not what the wider market wants. We have already seen comments in this thread regarding how expensive this amp is. Its not expensive considering its performance IMO but that doesn't dictate the market.

 

[March Audio]

Hmmm. I think every electronic failure these days starts by taking the top off and looking for bad electrolytic caps. It is that routine of a failure point. The caps have become the least reliable part of electronics today. So general consensus can be applied here.

In my testing we advocate the last bit of design performance. I don't think we need to make an exception when it comes to build quality. We should push companies to deliver on both. Few things are worse than a power amp failing. If my DAC fails, I have quick and cheap solutions. Not so for a $2000 amplifier.

You look for that because its the most physically obvious and easiest thing to diagnose.

Again I will ask for evidence about Hypex cap failures and and not conjecture.

Hypex have been making class d amps for 15 years. I don't see any commentary on the net about failed caps.

 

[DDF]

Its easy to ignore cap life until it bites your behind. Repeatedly.

In my personal systems alone in the last few years (all "high quality" and well ventilated):
- 2 year old Hypex 1200W power supply: Failed. Hypex asked me for picture of the caps (so they know). To their great credit, replaced PSU for free, new PSU had different brand caps. I would buy from Hypex again no question
- Sub amp failed in 3 years. Caps. Replaced ~ 10 of them. 5 years later, other original caps(s) failing, just recapped more last week
- 1 year old dac/pre failed. Caps. New PCB required, nightmare to get it recognized by the company (was without unit for 8 months pre Covid)
- SVS sub: 2 months out of warranty, failed. It sounded like a cap. To their great credit, replaced plate amp FOC, arrived within a week
- Bryston amp, 19 yrs old it developed a low level hum. To their amazing credit, sent all new PSU caps FOC, within a week

My mass market stuff: 40 year old NAD 3020, Yami HT receiver, Sonos all remain issue free.

Not just $$ spent, I hate the idea of filling landfills because one $2 S*!t part fails. This isn't a computer or high tech gizmo, almost all this gear will have the same use case in 30 years as it does today.

I now use a switchable power bar and turn everything off at end of day. And going forward will only buy from suppliers with a demonstrated track record of customer support and the engineering chops to appreciate these reliability issues.

John's right on the money here. If you believe low budget caps meet their stated specs, swamp land in Florida awaits your signature on the deed.

 

[March Audio]

Its easy to ignore cap life until it bites your behind. Repeatedly.

In my personal systems alone in the last few years (all "high quality" and well ventilated):
- 2 year old Hypex 1200W power supply: Failed. Hypex asked me for picture of the caps (so they know). To their great credit, replaced PSU for free, new PSU had different brand caps. I would buy from Hypex again no question
- Sub amp failed in 3 years. Caps. Replaced ~ 10 of them. 5 years later, other original caps(s) failing, just recapped more last week
- 1 year old dac/pre failed. Caps. New PCB required, nightmare to get it recognized by the company (was without unit for 8 months pre Covid)
- SVS sub: 2 months out of warranty, failed. It sounded like a cap. To their great credit, replaced plate amp FOC, arrived within a week
- Bryston amp, 19 yrs old it developed a low level hum. To their amazing credit, sent all new PSU caps FOC, within a week

My mass market stuff: 40 year old NAD 3020, Yami HT receiver, Sonos all remain issue free.

Not just $$ spent, I hate the idea of filling landfills because one $2 S*!t part fails. This isn't a computer or high tech gizmo, almost all this gear will have the same use case in 30 years as it does today.

I now use a switchable power bar and turn everything off at end of day. And going forward will only buy from suppliers with a demonstrated track record of customer support and the engineering chops to appreciate these reliability issues.

John's right on the money here. If you believe low budget caps meet their stated specs, swamp land in Florida awaits your signature on the deed.

So just to be clear was the hypex failure the caps or something else?

 

[restorer-john]

Its not John, not even close for the reasons already explained.

This is Apollons thread so I won't go further into the merits of recapping, but we won't be offering that service.

My agenda? Its you that has promoted incorrect information and called Hypex contemptible. Its you that mentioned caps being reliable for 30 to 40 years and we all know that you continually bash on about the your 1970s amplifiers as if they are the only good products ever made.

Again you are making the mistake of extrapolating your personal experience with different products, with different specific components, running under different operating conditions. You can't do that. Its completely erroneous to do so.

It's just amazing and unfortunate that you refuse to acknowledge the capacitors used are poor substitutes for quality capacitors, selected only because they are cheaper and less reliable. Every contributor to this thread (including @apollon to his credit) knows this to be true. Why not just drop the company line and admit you wish they used a decent brand and grade of caps? It's not that hard.

Until Hypex step up their game and specify better components, this will not go away. Every internal shot of a module or a power supply will show the shameful choices they made and people will comment. Reviewers will write about it. Technicians will express their disgust. People will want upgrades.

You can either advocate for change or dig in and yell from the bunker everytime.

 

[March Audio]

It's just amazing and unfortunate that you refuse to acknowledge the capacitors used are poor substitutes for quality capacitors, selected only because they are cheaper and less reliable. Every contributor to this thread (including @apollon to his credit) knows this to be true. Why not just drop the company line and admit you wish they used a decent brand and grade of caps? It's not that hard.

Until Hypex step up their game and specify better components, this will not go away. Every internal shot of a module or a power supply will show the shameful choices they made and people will comment. Reviewers will write about it. Technicians will express their disgust. People will want upgrades.

You can either advocate for change or dig in and yell from the bunker everytime.

John

Show me the Hypex cap failures.

If you can't you are wrong. Its that simple.

Your emotive language "shameful" etc doesn't help your cause. How about just supplying some evidence instead?

And no you have misrepresented Apollon. They have said that out of the amps they have sold not one single failure due to caps.

 

[Dmitri]

God help me...I’m jumping into the fray.

As a consumer, at this price point, I want exceptional reliability. If Hypex can’t convince me that they can provide that, I’ll go elsewhere. Part of it is having experienced the reliability of the Japanese manufactured components I grew up with. A stereo receiver did the same thing a stereo receiver did from twenty years prior...there were no real significant changes, so reliability really mattered. You didn’t need replace something until the old one died. I still have an Onkyo A5 from 1978. Works great...it lives in my shop and continues to play flawlessly...and the conditions out there aren’t exactly like the ones in my media room. That’s impressive, and impressive is what I want.

Here’s the thing, and this might already have been mentioned here...if not, certainly elsewhere. We are talking about reliability in a TOTL amplifier....the one component you can purchase without feeling a further need to upgrade as long as it is powerful or stable enough to drive your chosen speaker. If we’re talking AVR, computers, TV’s or any given video disc player, well yeah...it isn’t such a big deal that your caps might burn out after ten years. Most of us will have upgraded long before they crap out. But amps? I own a Rotel 1095. Doubt it tests worth a damn but I love the thing, and hope I will never need replace it...or god forbid it’s Coca Cola can caps. In an amp, above all else, I want reliability, because it can be the constant that your system constantly evolves around. It has one “simple” task, and as long as it’s doing it’s job, there is no need to replace it.

Can’t speak for the reliability of the Hypex modules, but I’d be happier knowing they had top of the line caps.

 

[restorer-john]

What is this beauty? Would test it here?

Isn't there a saying about the mountain and mohammed? 120lbs...

 

[amirm]

You look for that because its the most physically obvious and easiest thing to diagnose.

It is also a very common failure point or we would not look for it no matter how easy to find. Here is one failing in my Mark Levinson DAC:

 

[amirm]

Isn't there a saying about the mountain and mohammed? 120lbs...

The analyzer is in a rack and it ain't moving in that direction any more than the amp is the other way around.

 

[Dmitri]

Yeah...Class D may be the future, but I’d miss my chiropractor...

 

[March Audio]

It is also a very common failure point or we would not look for it no matter how easy to find. Here is one failing in my Mark Levinson DAC:

View attachment 88960

And the make of that cap?

Also its right next to 2 power resistors and probably a regulator which all presumably get hot. What is the caps temp rating?

No one is saying that caps don't fail, of course they do, but that's not the debate here.

What is being claimed here is that the Hypex products are suffering or will suffer unnecessarily high reliability/life issues as a result of the specific caps used. Can we have some science and evidence to justify this claim?

 

[orangejello]

For @restorer-john : Just curious if you have actually listened to the Hypex / Purifi stuff? The reason I ask is that I tend to hold on to all of my amps. So when the NAD M22 v2 came into my possession, I could compare it to nice equipment from by-gone days. I had a Sony integrated from 1976, a Threshold from the early nineties, a bunch of ultralinear tube amps, singled ended class A tube amps, solid state class A amps. After listening to the NAD in comparison to all of these and the AHB2 as well, there was no question in my experience that the NAD left all of them in the shade. I sold all of them because nostalgia is no longer my thing - except two exquisite Chi-Fi EL34/KT88 based amps that look like Swiss watches when you look at the manufacturing (great caps, point to point wiring with gleaming solder work, custom trannies etc.)

So my take is that if I have to spend 2K every 8-10 yrs for this kind of performance, I'm in. And they may well last much longer than that. I think you need to hear these thing (if you have not) before you make any value judgement. If you have heard the Hypex / Purifi modules and still think that they aren't worth it, cool. But this stuff is phenomenal both in terms of measurements and in term of the subjective result.

 

[restorer-john]

John

Show me the Hypex cap failures.

If you can't you are wrong. Its that simple.

You are just making it worse for yourself with each post.

You look for that because its the most physically obvious and easiest thing to diagnose.

No, you are wrong.

If you actually hunted down capacitor problems, you'd know the physical venting is the last stage of cheap capacitor failures. @amirm knows that.

The electrolyte is mostly water and the vents are placed in the "bung" on the base of capacitors. Usually the internal pressure will rupture the bung seal first and a tiny amount of gas (often hydrogen) will escape. This disipates harmlessly. Often the hydrogen can't escape easily as the capacitor is glued to the PCB, so it squeezes up the plastic sheath and the top plastic cap become swollen. People think the can is swollen but it's just the gas under the plastic top cap. The cap may still be fine at this point, although it is a warning for sure.

All the while the capacitor changes its electrical characteristics. An in circuit ESR meter is the best tool to find cap problems long before they physically leak. It's easy and fast (on powered off discharged circuits). Cheap brand caps pretty much always have skyrocketing ESR as they begin to fail. The circuit will still work, but it is degrading fast. The I2R losses (from rising ESR and ripple current) then cause rapid internal heating, loss of more electrolyte and process speeds up to complete failure, often taking out the stamped top vent which is for a catastrophic venting event.

SMPS supplies place a lot of strain on the simple capacitor. High frequency, high ripple current, high temperatures, marginal reserve in design and cheap brands all lead to premature failure.

 

[Tks]

Whatever. I didn't say Boeing, I said RR.

I am on point regarding prevailing organizational culture in the aerospace industry, and I know my experience in many firms applies to RR.

Tbh I was reading a few posts in the beginning of the thread, I had no clue you were involved in that topic

 

[Tks]

What is this beauty? Would test it here?

He's a bit scared to find out the performance, so no