Thanks, missed that by not reading entire thread. 1m or less? Phones dudes!
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Anything with better distortion than Neumann KH150?
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Thanks, missed that by not reading entire thread. 1m or less? Phones dudes!
Which distortion are you referring to? There are so many different distortions from linear over none linear from less relevant like harmonic distortion to more important distortion like inter modulation distortion. The amount of distortion changes depending on the spl the distance the listening angle...
I doubt that the KH150 are in any kind of distortion measures the best speakers out there. They have a lot of linear distortion due to its conventional 2 way design. They can't have low intermodulation distortion due to its lack of a dedicated midrange driver.
They most likely aren't bad speakers but fare away from any kind of reference.
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I'd like to use headphones, but I don't like the good ones with performance comparable to speakers are big, heavy, and hot after you've worn them for a while all while delivering a tiny soundstage that can't even compare to the worst speakers.
Blumlein 88
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The results of Amir's review indicate they are exemplary for flatness and even off axis response and very good to excellent on distortion most especially for their size.
Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review
This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Neumann KH150 DSP 2-way studio monitor (active speaker). It is on loan from the company and costs US $1,750 (each). The design language is not changed of course. The main woofer is 6.5 inches now powered by 120 watt dedicated...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Ok yes one point in a 3D space is flat. If this is a criteria you can get almost any speakers to look like that and there are good reasons why you shouldn't do it. If you cover alone the area of the head with measurements you get some smaller divination so the head related transfer functions won't see the ruler flat response even if you fix your head at the exact spot and aim the speaker perfectly...The results of Amir's review indicate they are exemplary for flatness and even off axis response and very good to excellent on distortion most especially for their size.
Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review
This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Neumann KH150 DSP 2-way studio monitor (active speaker). It is on loan from the company and costs US $1,750 (each). The design language is not changed of course. The main woofer is 6.5 inches now powered by 120 watt dedicated...
The of axis responses don't look better than its competitors. Rather the opposite. Typical vertical heavy distortion like all conventional 2 way speakers. The horizontal aren't free from artefact and the mix from horizontal and vertical angle will mess up the results compared with any good coaxial speaker.
Blumlein 88
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So you don't really understand the CEA2034 measurements? Oh well.............
Do you know what you get with that? It will not sound good and is therefore not recommended by any expert in the field of room acoustics.
I understand it pretty well. The listening window is rather small and doesn't cover the surface of a head (since it uses a 2D not a 3D calculation), which should be the correct way of doing a correction if the tonality of the direct sound is your priority. If you expect some head movement your 3D volume is rather larger and you should use all these responses for a good equalization.
At the level of a 1dB or less you should also be aware that the humidity, temperature and many other aspect will alter your frequency response.
These are also not the only problems if you use heavy equalisation. The measurements you see represent a smoothed version of the "real" amplitude frequency response. You (the human) ability to detect very small resonances is better than your ability to detect small frequency response deviations. This means a very heavy equalisation does only make sense if you compensate the minimum phase system part of the speakers which isn't easy at all to ensure at this level.
Therefore the equalization recommendations by pierre and others won't uses small parametric eqs with a high q-factor (small resonances) since it is more likely that you make the sound worse with it.
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I intentionally chose this because I want the "headphones experience" but without headphones because I hate them. Also, I sometimes do recordings in my room and I need zero reverb for that.
Ok, so if the Neumann measurements are a load of bunk, what should I be getting instead?
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Absolute garbage for soundstage.
Listening window is ±30° horizontal. If your head is 0.2 m wide, and right ear is at +30° and left ear is -30°, distance from speaker to center of head is 0.17 m. If your listening distance is 1 m or more, the listening window covers a width 1.15 m or more, and gives plenty of room for head movements.
Note:
Separate but related - when measuring HRTF, near field is considered to be 1 m or less. I.e. When source distance to center of head is > 1 m, HRTF is considered independent of source to listener distance.
Measurement of Head-Related Transfer Functions: A Review
A head-related transfer function (HRTF) describes an acoustic transfer function between a point sound source in the free-field and a defined position in the listener’s ear canal, and plays an essential role in creating immersive virtual acoustic environments (VAEs) reproduced over headphones or...
www.mdpi.com
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Ok I see. You won't get exactly this with loudspeakers since you have crosstalk from the right speaker to the left speaker. But you might get close.
No reverb at all will also be uncomfortable for many people.
I would recommend to use some coaxial or wideband speakers in the ultra nearfield below 0.7m. Have a look at the findings of Linkwitz especially his findings with the pluto speakers https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/Pluto-2.1.htm
I would try to hear some speakers which offer envelopment, which is the feeling of being in the audio scene rather than getting a presentation in front of you. This can be done with stereo and good room acoustics and most people prefer this compared with an typical headphone experience.
The are good speakers but some people me included wouldn't do everything exactly as they did.
I would strongly suggest to go to a store and try some speakers for exactly your purposes , ultra nearfield. The measurements might contain all information but we aren't good at reading them correctly as humans. So listening helps a lot.
Especially for a headphone like speakers I wouldn't choose the kh 150 and use a coaxial speakers or speakers where the tweeter and woofer have a minimal distance. with a minimal listening distance and a much wider stereo triangle. You can get close to headphones without headphones.
Blumlein 88
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Don't listen to that. These are not garbage.
Thanks for showing the exact definition. Your head and shoulders also cover a vertical space and if you are very exact a depth. If you correct half a dB all these parameters will change your equalization. Most companies don't equalize one measurement in space that heavily, due to this or some other reasons.Listening window is ±30° horizontal. If your head is 0.2 m wide, and right ear is at +30° and left ear is -30°, distance from speaker to center of head is 0.17 m. If your listening distance is 1 m or more, the listening window covers a width 1.15 m or more, and gives plenty of room for head movements.
View attachment 384764
Note:
Separate but related - when measuring HRTF, near field is considered to be 1 m or less. I.e. When source distance to center of head is > 1 m, HRTF is considered independent of source to listener distance.
Measurement of Head-Related Transfer Functions: A Review
A head-related transfer function (HRTF) describes an acoustic transfer function between a point sound source in the free-field and a defined position in the listener’s ear canal, and plays an essential role in creating immersive virtual acoustic environments (VAEs) reproduced over headphones or...
No, they are not bad and this is nowhere close to what I was talking about. But for a headphone replacement near field monitor I wouldn't use them they a to big. To be exact the distance between the woofer and tweeter is to big. The KH80 with subwoofer is better suited if you like the Neumann sound.
I guess the Genelec 8331 is the only coaxial (plus 3 way design) that covers those bases and is not much more expensive than the Kh-150. But even being a 3 way design, I don't see it measures better than the Kh-150. I maybe wrong (we don't have IMD data from either model).
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I think it is worth to check if you are really willing to go the room acoustics path, since it will be a lot of work and money and there are many people who tried this and weren't happy.
If you haven't any chance to listen to some speakers in a shop or so. I would do an experiment. You place the speakers in the middle of room, symmetrical so that the first reflections arrive at the same time from left and right speaker. Try some different listings distances from very close. There should be a point where you get envelopment. You most likely will like it and if you do, you have to change your room acoustic plans.
If you are searching for a speaker in the ultra nearfield i have some suggestions but it is important to listen to some speakers since the measurements can't 100% tell you how it will sound. Especially if you haven't heard a lot of speaker and how the different designs typically sound you don't know how it will sound and if you like this kind of sound.
I would have a look at the new ME Geithain MO-1 mk2 plus Subwoofer https://www.me-geithain.de/de/mo-1-mkii.html
The were developed for a listing distance from 0.6m so exactly a "headphone speaker" and should sound very good like all me Geithain speakers.
The Kef coaxials are also good but I am not sure if the will work in the ultra nearfield.
The JBL 104 aren't flawless they hiss and have an unusual high frequency behavior and I sometimes think I can hear the plastic enclosure and they can't play loud, but I like them very much. I think you can hear that the JBL speakers were developed with blind listening tests in which they have to be better than the competitors. The midrange is very good and the ability to create envelopment and a precise image is outstanding if you use speakers stands which don't add diffraction and place the speakers free so that the first reflections arrive late.
The Genelec ones are also a good option.
The small IK multimedia speakers should also work in the ultra nearfield.
Devialete or Cabasse should also have some good speakers which are worth a try.
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