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An Enticing Marketing Story, Theory Without Measurement?

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Just out of curiosity: what speakers you have Cosmik? I understood from some of your previous posts that you pay attention to the time domain performance?

I would like to see a loudspeaker with accurate time domain performance, excellent directivity and low distortion, very low latency and no reliability issues. Unfortunately I haven´t seen one.

Now I have to stick with two systems, maybe after 5 years some company can offer everything in one package?
 

Cosmik

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Just out of curiosity: what speakers you have Cosmik? I understood from some of your previous posts that you pay attention to the time domain performance?

I would like to see a loudspeaker with accurate time domain performance, excellent directivity and low distortion, very low latency and no reliability issues. Unfortunately I haven´t seen one.

Now I have to stick with two systems, maybe after 5 years some company can offer everything in one package?
My speakers are housed in re-used 1970s monkey coffins (which possibly sacrifice sturdiness for looks; but they do look very nice), and using pretty much the cheapest drivers that might be termed hi-fi - that was part of the proof, pudding, etc.

They're sealed, three-way (8", 3", 1"), active, with DSP crossovers and are reasonably large. The DSP aims to neutralise the drivers and perform time alignment, so there's latency.

Directivity-wise they are what they are, but being three-way they're not atrocious. They do actually sound like hi-fi.
 
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I would like to see a loudspeaker with accurate time domain performance, excellent directivity and low distortion, very low latency and no reliability issues. Unfortunately I haven´t seen one.
I think the JBL M2 fulfils what you are asking for. It's not a domestic product though as the amps are noisy and must be in another room, and the price is more than most want to pay, although I think they are good value - I have 2 pairs at work... At home I use Quad63s (rebuilt) with good subs. This combo also fulfils your requirement although the question would be around reliability of the ELS panels. I've only needed one rebuild in 10 years, so I think they are ok, without subs they are more prone to failure trying to reproduce bass...
 

Purité Audio

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Just out of curiosity: what speakers you have Cosmik? I understood from some of your previous posts that you pay attention to the time domain performance?

I would like to see a loudspeaker with accurate time domain performance, excellent directivity and low distortion, very low latency and no reliability issues. Unfortunately I haven´t seen one.

Now I have to stick with two systems, maybe after 5 years some company can offer everything in one package?
Dutch&Dutch 8C or Kii T`hREE, both have adjustable latency.
Keith
 

Dialectic

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Just out of curiosity: what speakers you have Cosmik? I understood from some of your previous posts that you pay attention to the time domain performance?

I would like to see a loudspeaker with accurate time domain performance, excellent directivity and low distortion, very low latency and no reliability issues. Unfortunately I haven´t seen one.

Now I have to stick with two systems, maybe after 5 years some company can offer everything in one package?
What do you mean by excellent directivity? Relatively uniform directivity?
 
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Thanks everyone for the input.

By excellent directivity I meant relatively uniform directivity indeed.

Dutch&Dutch and M2 are interesting. Kii Three is made from low quality parts and has high latency (my subjective opinion). I would not drop that sort of money in a planned obsolescence product.

I hope that Dutch&Dutch will introduce slightly smaller nearfield option at lower cost in the near future (As Keith mentioned in a another thread) - software might be more mature in it as well. Interesting times.
 
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6moons report of Dutch&Dutch 8c said:
Farther at the back of our 14 meter long room where our dining table sits, the sound still wanted a little extra. With the app at hand, we dialed the bass level up by just 3dB. Wow, that was all the sound needed.
I'm still wondering, under pure logical aspects, if lifting the bass of the "neutral" Dutch&Dutch by 3 dB in the playback room deteriorates the speaker sound and belongs to the age-of-the-universe stuff. Definitely the neutrality is hurt. Of course the personal enjoyment may be increased but this does not count because of the "never hurt the neutrality"-postulation claimed for in this thread.

If this logic is wrong then why and what is the correct logic here?
 
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1. Let's think about an ideal speaker. It would perfectly reproduce the input signal, it transfer behaviour is 1:1. A FIR representation would consist of a Dirac pulse, one single sample has the value 1, all other samples are 0. The Fourier transform leads to a straight horizontal magnitude response from DC to fs/2. The group delay is constant for all frequencies.

2. The ideal behaviour is valid for the movement of the driver coil. A battey connected to the coil will lead to a constant displacement of the coil. Thus it can transfer also DC. But we listen to sound waves in the air. The membrane oscillation causes changes in air pressure radiating into the room. With common speakers a constant displacement of the membrane does not lead to a constant change of air pressure (whereas moving the front wall in a totally sealed room would achieve this). Anyway the result is: we do not expect a transfer behaviour of a speaker down to DC.
furthermore we experience a drooping frequency response at the listening position because of a bigger distance between listener and speaker. Whereas a close-up measurement will show up the neutral behaviour of our ideal speaker.
An example of such an assumed ideal speaker is thus

Amplitude.png


It is not important of the lowest frequency is now 40 Hz, 25 Hz or 10 Hz. This depends on the size of the bass driver/s and the speaker design. The slope may be of 2nd or 4th oder dependent on closed or vented box. It also does not matter where the high frequency droop starts and how big it is. So the picture simply shows a possible example which includes the low frequency limitations and the high frequency droop. The speaker is still ideal.

As we live in a causal world the speaker will not play before it receives a signal. It will answer by a minimumphase behaviour which means that the given frequency response is achieved by the minimum phase changes in the speakers time behaviour. The derived step response of the ideal speaker thus is

StepResponse.png


Keeping this ideal step resonse in mind it makes sense to study published step responses of different speakers including ultra high-end speakers. A nice learing experience. Luckily our ears is quite tolerant for deviations but we are talking about the ideal case here.

Now let's take a real world step response example (a speaker in the class of about 15000 Euros), measured at the listening position:

StepUncorrected.png


We can identify the common behaiour of tweeter first, then midrange driver and then the bass. It's caused by the XO design chosen for this speaker.
With an applied room correction we get now:

StepCorrected.png


Obviously the timing has improved pretty much. There are still jags in the curve caused by room reflections. The reflections are not corrected. It simply does not make sense to do this because the reflection times are not constant when you move around in the room. The reflections show up also the improved shape of the direct step response.

So what's wrong with a "room correction" here? Please note that we have not talked here about frequency response or target curve. Just about one dimension = timing.
 

Purité Audio

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Thanks everyone for the input.

By excellent directivity I meant relatively uniform directivity indeed.

Dutch&Dutch and M2 are interesting. Kii Three is made from low quality parts and has high latency (my subjective opinion). I would not drop that sort of money in a planned obsolescence product.

I hope that Dutch&Dutch will introduce slightly smaller nearfield option at lower cost in the near future (As Keith mentioned in a another thread) - software might be more mature in it as well. Interesting times.
The Kiis have infinitely adjustable latency, useful if you are using them for video tracking , it is not the individual cost of the components that matter but the design and overall implementation, the Kiis are superb loudspeakers.
Keith
 
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The Kiis have infinitely adjustable latency, useful if you are using them for video tracking , it is not the individual cost of the components that matter but the design and overall implementation, the Kiis are superb loudspeakers.
Keith
I agree with you on technical performance - absolutely enjoyable speakers to listen to music. Even the visual design is living room friendly :)

However they are made from junk parts and wont last for 20 years and can’t be repaired after 8-12 years which is propably quite near their designed ”life cycle” - with M2 investment is much more safe in this sense.

I know one party which reverse engineered a pair - they were not impressed by longeavity of the design of ”Three”. Wont give any names here.
 
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In as much the m2’s are just two drivers in a box you are probably quite correct, to state that the Kiis are made from ‘junk parts’ just shows your ignorance.
Keith
Didnt mean to offend anyone. I am seriously concerned in longeavity of loudspeakers in this price range - it is not ignorance.

My opinion is that true ignorance is to design expensive loudspeaker with relatively short life cycle and to make it non-repairable.

If I had an assurance of Kii Threes to last for 20 years or more (as high quality monitor should) - I would buy them with a smile on my face!
 

Purité Audio

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Why would you say they are non repairable, from my own admittedly small representative sample I have encountered more issues with ‘traditional’ monitors than with either the Kii or Dutch&Dutch 8Cs.
Keith
 
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