Amplifier upgrade advice, is it worth it?

[PGansz]

The manufacturer says it does -3dB at 20Hz, but maybe my unit is not so well done, or it has degraded over time (the sub is 10 years old).

SVS SB-1000, I've heard about it before. Thanks for really extensive catalogue of reviews, so I can get more 'paralysis by analysis' . In fact, I enjoy looking and comparing different gear and trying to figure it out how to upgrade my system, so it will be a lot of fun.

BTW, talking about subs, a question about the crossover. Right now I have the crossover between the sub and the Kefs at 60Hz... The Kefs, looking at the specs, can go up to 38Hz at -6dB and up to 58Hz at -3dB... the sub can go up to 120Hz. The AVR let me choose between 40, 60 and 80... I guess 60Hz is a safe choice, but is it the right one?

Best,
Kurt.-

Cross at 80 and it will get better.

Edit: just read you already did that. I don't know why your measurements keep changing unless things in your room change?

The RZ50 is currently 1k at Audio Advice and can be found at that price certainly this holiday season. If Dirac is what you want and generally a bit more power, this could definitely help.

 

[kurtie]

Cross at 80 and it will get better.

Edit: just read you already did that. I don't know why your measurements keep changing unless things in your room change?

The RZ50 is currently 1k at Audio Advice and can be found at that price certainly this holiday season. If Dirac is what you want and generally a bit more power, this could definitely help.

I got a Umik-1 mic and now I can get more consistent measurements. Anyway I have observed that what really makes a difference between measurements is the mic position (everything else is the same). My listening position is on a couch, and the mic position may be slightly different on different days, and that seem enough to show some differences in measurements in high frequencies. Now I am getting quite consistent measurements under 500Hz or so.

With REW I do sereral measurements in different positions (6 positions or so, just a few cms apart) and I do the average and then calculate the correction EQs from that average. I am getting the vibes that trying to correct high frequencies is not as useful as low frequencies.

My mesaurements told me that the new sub position was not making any real difference so I put it in the place it was before, but the "sub crawl" was useful to confirm that my sub is well placed where it is (measurements in other places have tried are worse).

I think I will wait for a discount on a SVS SB1000 Pro and try it... I even can try a dual sub setup with my current sub has similar specs and see how it goes and if it is an improvement over my current setup (I guess it will be).

As for the RZ50, unfortunately here in Europe I can only get it around 1.5K. I can get a X3800H around 1K. And X3800H seems to have better support for multiple subs...

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[Oddball]

Looks like you like to play around so as noted 3800H might be right for you. Can add more subs, play with XT32 all you want (there is also Audyssey MultiEQ-X app for additional $200 and many features to customise) and eventually move to Dirac if that does not work for you or just curious about Dirac and want to try it out.

Adding additional channels might also be a good upgrade path in the future. That might have even bigger impact than room correction, but good speakers unfortunately don't come cheap.

 

[Willem]

My suggestion would be to add at least one more sub, and use Multi Sub Optimizer software, combined with your existing Adyssey capability. Using a miniDSP 2x4HD you can equalize up to four subs with main speakers high passed by the AVR. If you want to play the main speakers full range and equalize them with MSO as well, you can only equalize two subs. High passing the main speakers obviously gives your system more headroom. Subwoofers do not have to be identical, but since your subwoofer has a passive radiator, using an identical sub may be better according to some.
Multi Sub Optimizer is a superb (and free) software package that optimizes equalization independently for multiple subwoofers, and for best results across a wide listening area. Its only drawback is that it is not easy to implement, although there are good online tutorials.

 

[kurtie]

Looks like you like to play around so as noted 3800H might be right for you. Can add more subs, play with XT32 all you want (there is also Audyssey MultiEQ-X app for additional $200 and many features to customise) and eventually move to Dirac if that does not work for you or just curious about Dirac and want to try it out.

Adding additional channels might also be a good upgrade path in the future. That might have even bigger impact than room correction, but good speakers unfortunately don't come cheap.

Yes, I like to play around .

I use the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for Android which is just 20$, and for that price is totally worth it. I see the MultiEQ-X app allows to introduce my own EQ filters to the target curve, and that would be a very welcome feature... but for around 200$ and a X3800H I can also get a Dirac License... Audyssey XT32 or Dirac? That's something I have my doubts about.

I finally solved my 'reproducibility problems' when taking measures. It was the mic position, if it is not exactly the same, the measurement changes (the higher the frequency, the more dependent it is to position). I tried the "moving microphone method" (MMM) and I was shocked by it. It is reproducible every time, and the resulting filters sound noticeably better than using single point measurements (I guess that I was not using enough measurements), but only can solve low frequency issues, which is what I want. Anyway results I am getting from MMM + REW + APO Equalizer are far better than Audyssey XT (without 32)

APO Equalizer app for Windows only works when I play something from the PC, but some applications ignore it (for instance the Netflix app). Luckily Spotify does not bypass it, so I can listen to music with correction applied .

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kurtie]

My suggestion would be to add at least one more sub, and use Multi Sub Optimizer software, combined with your existing Adyssey capability. Using a miniDSP 2x4HD you can equalize up to four subs with main speakers high passed by the AVR. If you want to play the main speakers full range and equalize them with MSO as well, you can only equalize two subs. High passing the main speakers obviously gives your system more headroom. Subwoofers do not have to be identical, but since your subwoofer has a passive radiator, using an identical sub may be better according to some.
Multi Sub Optimizer is a superb (and free) software package that optimizes equalization independently for multiple subwoofers, and for best results across a wide listening area. Its only drawback is that it is not easy to implement, although there are good online tutorials.

"At least" one more sub... . Two of them seem a lot to me right now (my room is just around 24 m2 (that is around 250 ft2), but I want to try 2 of them.

By the way, my current sub is the BK Electronics P12-300SB-DF (Down Firing) not the BK Electronics P12-300SB-PR (Passive Radiator). They are very easy to confuse. The PR one did not exist when I bought mine.

My intention is to get an SVS-SB 1000 Pro (I hope for a discount on Black Friday), and try it without my current sub and with my current sub. I foresee several possible outcomes:

1. Two subs setup sound the best (likely but may involve a lot of trial and error). In that case I would keep both of them and I will enjoy the improvement
2. I cannot make the two subs setup sound good enough, and the SVS sounds better than the BK. In that case I would get rid of the BK and I will enjoy the improvement
3. I cannot make the two subs setup sound good enough, and the BK sounds better than the SVS (seems unlikely). I would return the SVS and no improvement to enjoy

And I will check that Multi Sub Optimizer app, of course...

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[Oddball]

Yes, I like to play around .

I use the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for Android which is just 20$, and for that price is totally worth it. I see the MultiEQ-X app allows to introduce my own EQ filters to the target curve, and that would be a very welcome feature... but for around 200$ and a X3800H I can also get a Dirac License... Audyssey XT32 or Dirac? That's something I have my doubts about.

I finally solved my 'reproducibility problems' when taking measures. It was the mic position, if it is not exactly the same, the measurement changes (the higher the frequency, the more dependent it is to position). I tried the "moving microphone method" (MMM) and I was shocked by it. It is reproducible every time, and the resulting filters sound noticeably better than using single point measurements (I guess that I was not using enough measurements), but only can solve low frequency issues, which is what I want. Anyway results I am getting from MMM + REW + APO Equalizer are far better than Audyssey XT (without 32)

APO Equalizer app for Windows only works when I play something from the PC, but some applications ignore it (for instance the Netflix app). Luckily Spotify does not bypass it, so I can listen to music with correction applied .

Best,
Kurt.-

IMO you get more flexibility and options with MultiEQ-X vs regular Dirac (even full bandwidth). They are different EQ systems and also dependent on the rooms and don't think there is a consensus which one is better in which rooms. DLBC multi module (once you get 2 subs and if have 2 independent outputs) is what makes setup easier, but again will have limited flexibility. Some level of consensus is that better not to run full range correction, but I can't say I agree. My room requires full range correction and response is much smoother and sounds better.

MultiEQ-X will also let you load your REW filters (but not MSO last time I checked, or at least not without issues) and will allow you to make perfect curves as well as fix any limited bandwidth issues with appropriate filter if that works better. $20 Audy App is actually done by D&M and not Audy. Don't think that a curve you make in the $20 app is anything like the curve you make in $200 app. You need to understand how to make that curve and Audy $200 app has many more inputs and adjustments so you get it up to your liking and speaker specs. Audy stands behind most of its work in the MultiEQ-X but obviously the predicted outcome is not the actual outcome, so additional REW check up and adjustments often needed.

As noted, it is all part of the journey and for $200 you can have so much fun and play around for a year or more.

 

[Willem]

"At least" one more sub... . Two of them seem a lot to me right now (my room is just around 24 m2 (that is around 250 ft2), but I want to try 2 of them.

By the way, my current sub is the BK Electronics P12-300SB-DF (Down Firing) not the BK Electronics P12-300SB-PR (Passive Radiator). They are very easy to confuse. The PR one did not exist when I bought mine.

My intention is to get an SVS-SB 1000 Pro (I hope for a discount on Black Friday), and try it without my current sub and with my current sub. I foresee several possible outcomes:

1. Two subs setup sound the best (likely but may involve a lot of trial and error). In that case I would keep both of them and I will enjoy the improvement
2. I cannot make the two subs setup sound good enough, and the SVS sounds better than the BK. In that case I would get rid of the BK and I will enjoy the improvement
3. I cannot make the two subs setup sound good enough, and the BK sounds better than the SVS (seems unlikely). I would return the SVS and no improvement to enjoy

And I will check that Multi Sub Optimizer app, of course...

Best,
Kurt.-

Two subs can make for a considerably smoother response because peaks and dips are evened out, and across a wider listening area (and three or four are even smoother). Unless you are strictly limited to one listening position, two subs is the minimum. In fact, four small subs will sound quite a bit better than one big one, inless you crave for very deep bass, in which case one big sub combined with one, two or three small ones will do the job. And always apply dsp room eq, preferably MSO in case of multiple subs.
As for the sound quality of different subs, there is unlikely to be much difference, other than extension and undistorted spl. The ASR subwoofer database with give you the necessary measurement data. Subwoofer prices differ greatly between regions/continenhts, so what is a good deal in one place, may be overpriced in another.