Amplifier upgrade advice, is it worth it?

[kurtie]

Hi there,

I have been reading this forums from time to time for years but is the first time I write something here.

A couple of months ago I upgraded my front speakers to a pair of KEF R3 Meta, and very happy with the upgrade (from Focal Aria 906). My sub is a BK Electronics P12-300SB. I have a pair of Scandyna Minipod Mk II as surround speakers.

Actually I drive them with a Denon AVR-X2600H, using Audyssey XT as room correction, and it improves the sound (after some tries with the calibration thing, using the MultEQ App for fine tuning), but there is room for improvement (pun intended). I have a few bass traps but unfortunately I do not have a sound dedicated room, so it is not an option to hang more things on walls or ceiling.

I use my sound system like 65% for music listening, 35% for home theater. I don't need super loud volumes, my neigbours would complain.


My question is if it would make sense to 'upgrade' my Denon to:

- Audiophonics AP300-S125NC
- MiniDSP Flex HT

Pros:
- Dirac instead of Audyssey XT (maybe the biggest improvement?)
- Better amplifier (Denon low-midrange vs Hypex Ncore NC122MP, but I will hear the difference?)

Cons:
- MiniDSP surround decoding capabilities is quite limited
- I need another amp for surrond... I can sacrifice surround, is not a must for me, music goes first, and surround without a AV receiver is tough.
- I have to spend money for the new setup... my current setup is far from perfect, but it is enjoyable.

Is this a silly 'upgrade'? I would appreciate the oppinion of people with more experience than me in this matters.

I am also looking at other options with Dirac (Dirac is a must in the new setup) like the NAD-C389, but it is pricier, and I it is a less modular setup, so harder to upgrade. Feel free to recommend other gear that you think may suit me better.

Best and thanks in advance,
Kurt.-

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, just a thought since your question remains unanswered.

As you probably know, you won't get much improvement if any from changing your amp - unless you need more power than your X2600H provides.

I'm unsure (not my area) if changing the room correction software would help. It might, but someone else needs to advise, or you can research.

Your Kefs are good, unlikely to need a change there. Perhaps adding another sub? But first;

You say there is room for improvement. Can you elaborate: what do you think is lacking? Have you tried measurements to verify that?

What are you looking for that you don't have?

 

[peng]

You will gain more by going with a AVR-X3800H when it is on sale, but the Cinema 50 may be better if you in certain part of Europe such as the U.K., France or Germany because the price difference between the two are much more reasonable that it is in NA.

Then if you are experienced and skillful, Audyssey with the $20 app is fine, otherwise bite the bullet and buy the DLBC license.

After that, you can evaluate if an amp like the NC502MP or even just the weaker NC125MP may help, I see no point going with the NC125MP.

 

[EERecordist]

Welcome to ASR! You have a good system you have put research to build. The auto-EQ systems are great. Might I suggest Room EQ Wizard and a calibrated microphone? Sometimes things can be improved by decorative acoustic treatments and rugs while keeping the room aesthetic.

 

[DVDdoug]

and surround without a AV receiver is tough.

Right! You'll have no way of decoding DVD & Blu-Ray audio.

You may also need a way to select between different sources/inputs.

If you want to upgrade you MIGHT want a different AVR with different/better room correction, but I don't know what you want...

Do you have a center speaker? That usually helps a lot with movies where most of the sound comes from the center and the dialog may be more intelligible. You'll get the center audio in the downmix so you don't really lose anything but the phantom center may not work as well and with a separate center speaker you can adjust it separately.

 

[kurtie]

Hi, just a thought since your question remains unanswered.

As you probably know, you won't get much improvement if any from changing your amp - unless you need more power than your X2600H provides.

I'm unsure (not my area) if changing the room correction software would help. It might, but someone else needs to advise, or you can research.

Your Kefs are good, unlikely to need a change there. Perhaps adding another sub? But first;

You say there is room for improvement. Can you elaborate: what do you think is lacking? Have you tried measurements to verify that?

What are you looking for that you don't have?

Hi,

Thanks for the answer. I was thinking my post maybe was too convoluted...

I suspect that I will not hear any noticeable differente but I am not sure about that because I never tried better amps... that's why I am asking. I really don't need more power. X2600H is loud enough for me. The person that sold me the Kefs (a professional Hi-Fi gear seller) told me that a better amp would make a difference, but I think that he was just trying to sell me more stuff.

Yes, the main area of improvement, I think, will be changing from Audyssey XT (not even XT32) to Dirac

Indeed my Kefs are good (at least compared with my previous Focal Aria 906). I am very happy with them. And they look terrific!

Now that you mention it... I guess that I am looking for "better sound"... but not sure how much I can improve.

Yes, I've done measurements... dozens over the years, but only a few since I have the Kefs. I've attached two images from REW Audyssey: first without Audyssey, second with it. My mic is not the best for that, and levels are messed up between this two measurements but you just can ignore the level difference and look at the 'flatness' (or lack of) of the measurements.

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kemmler3D]

Since you are using a powered sub, a better amp probably isn't going to get you a noticeable improvement in sound quality. You do have some not-so-nice looking peaks in the bass even after Audyssey (35hz and 100hz) if you can somehow get those knocked down it would help. I find that peaks in the bass are really annoying.

You are also missing everything under 30hz, so if you are looking to spend some money on your system I'd suggest getting another sub and/or upgrading the subs to a pair of something beefier.

Upgrading to Dirac could also help, but room correction is not magic, it can only smooth out what the sub/room combination provides so much.

Lastly, it's usually possible to optimize the sound a bit by moving the speakers. But often that's not possible due to room / decor considerations.

 

[kurtie]

You will gain more by going with a AVR-X3800H when it is on sale, but the Cinema 50 may be better if you in certain part of Europe such as the U.K., France or Germany because the price difference between the two are much more reasonable that it is in NA.

Then if you are experienced and skillful, Audyssey with the $20 app is fine, otherwise bite the bullet and buy the DLBC license.

After that, you can evaluate if an amp like the NC502MP or even just the weaker NC125MP may help, I see no point going with the NC125MP.

You are spot on. AVR-3800H was the first upgrade path I was looking at... then I got lost looking different amps (Nad), and then the MiniDSP thing with the Ncore amp... Maybe I will have to look at X3800H again... it's an easier path with less friction.

Upgrading to X3800H just seemed to much money for getting exactly the same thing I have now, but just a bit better, and even a downgrade in some areas as the DACs as it seems... but then, I will hear that? The main reason for the upgrade is Dirac. But all the upgrade paths to Dirac are expensive. The cheaper one is the Onkyo one I think.

I already have the $20 app for Audyssey. Is very useful being able to store different measurements, because the process has some degree of ramdomness, at least with AudysseyXT. If I upgrade to X3800H I will get Audyssey XT32 that should be an improvement. Then the next question is, is it worth it getting the license for Dirac having Audyssey XT32?

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kurtie]

Welcome to ASR! You have a good system you have put research to build. The auto-EQ systems are great. Might I suggest Room EQ Wizard and a calibrated microphone? Sometimes things can be improved by decorative acoustic treatments and rugs while keeping the room aesthetic.

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, I tried REW with my previous Focal. And I got some good results, but the problem with that is that I only could use the equalization from my computer, using Equalizer APO.

Then I tried not only equalization, but to create a "finite impulse response" (FIR) filter following this method:

The David Brancato Digital Room Correction Methods using REW and RePhase - Gearspace.com

A thread to enable more detailed discussion of a method of Digital Room correction described in the Youtube videos, at the link below The David Brancato Digital Room Correction Methods using REW and RePhase https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcS...UfuA/play

gearspace.com

If I am honest, I did not understand many of the steps I was doing or if they made sense. After investing a good amount of hours, some tries and some tinkering, and probably a good dose of luck, I was able to improve noticeably the sound of my system. Bass was a quite clearer, maybe a bit thinner that I would like, but more focused and defined than before, and measurements also showed some improvement, it was not my imagination. That was progress!

I think that Dirac also does that (the impulse response thing), so I think that (hopefully) I may get good results with Dirac.

I have to try the room correction with FIR filters again with the Kefs, but it is a very time consuming process with a lot of steps, and is easy to mess up something. And then, with my current setup this only work from my computer, not from any other source. The MiniDSP would help there because it supports FIR filters... and also Dirac.

Good advice with acoustic treatments. Right now I have a few bass traps and curtains that diffuse sound a bit... but (surprise!) bass is the thing that needs more improvement, and bass traps need to be big to work... so right now, not much I can do right now in this regard I fear.

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kemmler3D]

bass traps need to be big to work... so right now, not much I can do right now in this regard I fear.

Big yes but not necessarily thick - there is a type of bass trap that you can build yourself that can be relatively thin known as a "VPR" (which is German for... multilayered trap, or something.)

Basically you glue a thin sheet of steel to a piece of foam, (attached to a frame, probably) and place that somewhere in your room.

I don't think this style of bass trap is very well known. Usually people refer to bass traps as needing to be very large, but if you read this thread, some people have had pretty interesting results in the 30-100hz range, without building anything very deep / thick.

I think it could be done pretty affordably if you can get the steel sheets at a good price. There's a place near me that will sell thin ones 4' x 8' for $60. Fabric to cover it will probably cost you more.

Anyone successfully DIY a VPR bass trap

Hi saw a couple of threads on VRP bass traps anyone here actually been able to build one? I'm thinking of tackling this project as I can't install corner traps in my listening area difficulty would; - sourcing the materials, any leads for the foam and metal panel in vic - I understand these don't...

www.stereonet.com

 

[kurtie]

Since you are using a powered sub, a better amp probably isn't going to get you a noticeable improvement in sound quality. You do have some not-so-nice looking peaks in the bass even after Audyssey (35hz and 100hz) if you can somehow get those knocked down it would help. I find that peaks in the bass are really annoying.

You are also missing everything under 30hz, so if you are looking to spend some money on your system I'd suggest getting another sub and/or upgrading the subs to a pair of something beefier.

Upgrading to Dirac could also help, but room correction is not magic, it can only smooth out what the sub/room combination provides so much.

Lastly, it's usually possible to optimize the sound a bit by moving the speakers. But often that's not possible due to room / decor considerations.

Hi,

Thanks for the good advice.

The not-so-nice looking peaks I think are the resonances of my room. Time ago, there was a big dip around 70Hz that I was able to somehow fix moving the sub.

Upgrade the sub...maybe right now is the weakest point of the chain. Compared with the Kefs, it lacks 'refinement', I think it was designed more as a home theater sub than as a music sub. And after 10 years, and all the other upgrades, it makes sense to upgrade it.

But beefier? I mean, Audyssey always level it at around -10dB, and I have the volume like below the 40%... that thing (it's a big cube) make a lot of 'noise'. Is it 300W not enough? (an honest question, no rethorical, I really don't know). The sub is rated at -3dB at 20Hz (https://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm). Could be the mic at fault? At enough volume I can feel the low frequencies in my body.

Getting another sub... that would help with the room modal frequencies, right? Mmm... Would you (or anybody else) be so kind to recommend a decent sub for my setup? (or as decent as possible under $1000). Main focus music... home theater, secondary. If I go to the two subs route, both have to be equal or can I mix different subs?

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kemmler3D]

But beefier? I mean, Audyssey always level it at around -10dB, and I have the volume like below the 40%... that thing (it's a big cube) make a lot of 'noise'. Is it 300W not enough? (an honest question, no rethorical, I really don't know). The sub is rated at -3dB at 20Hz (https://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm). Could be the mic at fault? At enough volume I can feel the low frequencies in my body.

300w is enough with the right design if it's enough for your room. I guess when I mentioned "beefier" I meant with more low extension. If it really does -3dB at 20hz then your room seems to be eating half of the bottom octave.

Getting another sub... that would help with the room modal frequencies, right? Mmm... Would you (or anybody else) be so kind to recommend a decent sub for my setup? (or as decent as possible under $1000).

It should help, if placed correctly, yes.

My go-to recommendation for this price range would be SVS SB-1000 pro: https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer but some of the Monoprice subs are also a good bang-for-buck - you can also check out @sweetchaos ' extensive catalogue of reviews, it's far from the only option.

If I go to the two subs route, both have to be equal or can I mix different subs?

I think you can mix different subs, especially if you are doing mono bass. Audyssey should set levels so the difference in output usually won't be a problem.

 

[kurtie]

Big yes but not necessarily thick - there is a type of bass trap that you can build yourself that can be relatively thin known as a "VPR" (which is German for... multilayered trap, or something.)

Basically you glue a thin sheet of steel to a piece of foam, (attached to a frame, probably) and place that somewhere in your room.

I don't think this style of bass trap is very well known. Usually people refer to bass traps as needing to be very large, but if you read this thread, some people have had pretty interesting results in the 30-100hz range, without building anything very deep / thick.

I think it could be done pretty affordably if you can get the steel sheets at a good price. There's a place near me that will sell thin ones 4' x 8' for $60. Fabric to cover it will probably cost you more.

Anyone successfully DIY a VPR bass trap

Hi saw a couple of threads on VRP bass traps anyone here actually been able to build one? I'm thinking of tackling this project as I can't install corner traps in my listening area difficulty would; - sourcing the materials, any leads for the foam and metal panel in vic - I understand these don't...

www.stereonet.com

Interesting stuff, I did not know about that... building the bass traps myself seem a bit out of my skills. It probably is several times cheaper than getting finished ones from a retailer though. The other problem is that 'DIY' (Do It Myself?) bass traps made by me would probably be not very decorative (if not plain ugly, lol), and my listening room is my living room...

One of the things that could work is getting some nice to look at (and probably expensive) bass traps and putting them in the ceiling, but right now I am not going to go deeper into the room treatment path...

Maybe at some point in the future I will move to another place where I can get a proper listening room... then I would go full steam on the room treatment path... just not the right time

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kurtie]

300w is enough with the right design if it's enough for your room. I guess when I mentioned "beefier" I meant with more low extension. If it really does -3dB at 20hz then your room seems to be eating half of the bottom octave.

The manufacturer says it does -3dB at 20Hz, but maybe my unit is not so well done, or it has degraded over time (the sub is 10 years old).

My go-to recommendation for this price range would be SVS SB-1000 pro: https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000-pro-subwoofer but some of the Monoprice subs are also a good bang-for-buck - you can also check out @sweetchaos ' extensive catalogue of reviews, it's far from the only option.

SVS SB-1000, I've heard about it before. Thanks for really extensive catalogue of reviews, so I can get more 'paralysis by analysis' . In fact, I enjoy looking and comparing different gear and trying to figure it out how to upgrade my system, so it will be a lot of fun.

BTW, talking about subs, a question about the crossover. Right now I have the crossover between the sub and the Kefs at 60Hz... The Kefs, looking at the specs, can go up to 38Hz at -6dB and up to 58Hz at -3dB... the sub can go up to 120Hz. The AVR let me choose between 40, 60 and 80... I guess 60Hz is a safe choice, but is it the right one?

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kemmler3D]

The manufacturer says it does -3dB at 20Hz, but maybe my unit is not so well done, or it has degraded over time (the sub is 10 years old).

SVS SB-1000, I've heard about it before. Thanks for really extensive catalogue of reviews, so I can get more 'paralysis by analysis' . In fact, I enjoy looking and comparing different gear and trying to figure it out how to upgrade my system, so it will be a lot of fun.

BTW, talking about subs, a question about the crossover. Right now I have the crossover between the sub and the Kefs at 60Hz... The Kefs, looking at the specs, can go up to 38Hz at -6dB and up to 58Hz at -3dB... the sub can go up to 120Hz. The AVR let me choose between 40, 60 and 80... I guess 60Hz is a safe choice, but is it the right one?

Best,
Kurt.-

Choice of crossover is a bit subjective, I think that in general crossing up to 100hz or so (or even higher) can be good. Based on your measurements you have a bit of a dip around 60hz so I might cross a little above that, to give more output and multiple sources at that frequency, so you can potentially fill it in more. Crossing depending on where the performance of the mains or sub degrades is smart... you also want to consider whether you can localize the sub, which becomes more of an issue the higher you cross.

As for the spreadsheet ... definitely a lot of analysis-paralysis on offer there. My suggestion is to make a copy of the spreadsheet and sort / filter / search like you would any other spreadsheet. Otherwise it's like reading a novel comprised only of subwoofer specs...

 

[ryanmh1]

Dirac and xt32 are basically equivalent. Want dirac get Onkyo RZ50 or Pio LX805 if you are in US. Big sales on those right now. Existing sub is bad. Get Monoprice Monolith, Klipsch RP1200/1400/1600 or SVS PB if you want a real one. Klipsch must be their new series. Old Klipsch no bueno. Speedwoofer is also good. That will end analysis paralysis. Everything else is meh. If XT32 let receiver set and forget xover. Dirac might be more work?

 

[kurtie]

Choice of crossover is a bit subjective, I think that in general crossing up to 100hz or so (or even higher) can be good. Based on your measurements you have a bit of a dip around 60hz so I might cross a little above that, to give more output and multiple sources at that frequency, so you can potentially fill it in more. Crossing depending on where the performance of the mains or sub degrades is smart... you also want to consider whether you can localize the sub, which becomes more of an issue the higher you cross.

As for the spreadsheet ... definitely a lot of analysis-paralysis on offer there. My suggestion is to make a copy of the spreadsheet and sort / filter / search like you would any other spreadsheet. Otherwise it's like reading a novel comprised only of subwoofer specs...

I've changed crossover to 80Hz, and I've been listening to it for a few days, and I like it.

Today I was in the mood of doing some measurements for measuring the difference between 80Hz and 60Hz crossover... then I begin to move the sub a few centimeters here and there and measuring it each time until I settled it for the new "best" position. I have attached the final measurements at 60Hz and 80Hz in the final position I settled the sub.

No clue of what is going on arount 200Hz... that was consistent in all the measurements I did today. And no peak at 70Hz, even before moving the sub, that's weird! I have problems reproducing measurements consistently. They are very consistent during the same session... but if I try to measure again some months later, I may get some different peaks or dips here and there... probably I am doing something wrong when setting up the mic, or something else is changing (temperature? humidity? things in different position in the room?).

Anyway, it sounds a bit better now to me

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kurtie]

Dirac and xt32 are basically equivalent. Want dirac get Onkyo RZ50 or Pio LX805 if you are in US. Big sales on those right now. Existing sub is bad. Get Monoprice Monolith, Klipsch RP1200/1400/1600 or SVS PB if you want a real one. Klipsch must be their new series. Old Klipsch no bueno. Speedwoofer is also good. That will end analysis paralysis. Everything else is meh. If XT32 let receiver set and forget xover. Dirac might be more work?

I am very interested in oppinions on Dirac performance. Now I have Audyssey XT but is a bit limited. Both of them (Audyssey XT32 and Dirac) should perform noticeably better than XT. If I get an AVR-X3800H I will get XT32 out of the box, and it's tempting because I am seeing good prices for it (around 1000€, and Black Friday is coming). For an extra $259 I can get a Dirac Limited Bandwith license, and for $349 I can get the Full Bandwith license, but if you are right, then that would be a waste money.

I've done my fair share of research on Dirac, and some people says that it blows XT32 out of the water, but you know how the Internet is... I have also read that is not so good, so I really don't know and I cannot try it without spending more than 1K. Supposedly Dirac is technologically better than XT32 (impulse response filters, Audyssey don't do that). I would appreciate having the oppinion of people who has tried Dirac. Please, could you elaborate more on Dirac performance vs Audyssey XT32?

Onkyo RZ50 is more expensive than Denon AVR-X3800H, even after upgrading it to Dirac... so I guess that in case of upgrading my AVR2600H, the AVR3800H makes more sense for me. And I am from Barcelona, so no Pioneer for me it seems.

And for the sub... yes, maybe it would be a good idea upgrading my sub. I would not say my current one is bad (I am fond of it ), let's say that I can get a better one. A lot of people talks very good about SVS SB-1000 and I like it (I like sealed subs more then ported ones). I think it will fit very well in my sound system, and the price is about right for me... Gear Acquisition Syndrome incoming

Best,
Kurt.-

 

[kemmler3D]

No clue of what is going on arount 200Hz... that was consistent in all the measurements I did today. And no peak at 70Hz, even before moving the sub, that's weird! I have problems reproducing measurements consistently. They are very consistent during the same session... but if I try to measure again some months later, I may get some different peaks or dips here and there... probably I am doing something wrong when setting up the mic, or something else is changing (temperature? humidity? things in different position in the room?).

Looks like there is a bit of a null at 200hz... you might try boosting the EQ there and see what happens but it might only be curable by moving stuff around.

As for measurements changing from day to day... to get consistent results, everything needs to be in the same place - the mic especially but also furniture, windows and doors open/closed. Temperature can affect it but not very much.

 

[kurtie]

Hi again,

Yes, I did move things again. I even did a "sub crawl" (putting the sub on the listening position and while playing some bass sweeps crawling around the room looking where it sounds best). And I think it worked. The sub ended only just around 40 cms where it was, but it sounds different, and I like how it sounds (I still have to re-run Audyssey again).

My thougts after so many advises (thank you all) :

1. - My original idea was improving the room correction. For that I would go for a Denon X3800H. It's getting cheaper, I can get one for under 1K and Black Friday is coming. Out of the box I would get Audyssey XT32. Coughing some hundreds more I can get Dirac Live ($259 for limited range and $349 for full range). MiniDSP + new amp is more expensive and I will loose surround in many situations, so I won't go that way.

What I did right now is getting a UMIK-1 measurement mic. The one I had is 'meh'. I am going to get serious with measurement and I will try to take REW calibration as far as I can get... then see if is worth improving room correction.

2. - I was not going to change my sub, but now I am thinking on getting a new one. And I went into this rabbit hole (that is, tons of research). But now I have a lot more questions, oh boy! :

- Will the SVS SB-1000 Pro be an improvement over the BK P12-300 DF (this sub had very good reviews)? I guess it is, but enough improvement to justify 750 (or less in BF)? It's a pitty that a few years ago it was quite cheaper, that would everything easier)? I know, that 'justified' is subjective . Their specs are very similar (I know specs are not everything), but still. I could even combine de SB-1000 with my current sub and go for a dual sub setup... my current AVR-2600H supports that. Tempting.

- Then I see the SVS PB-1000 Pro. It's 200€ more but seems so much more capable! If my focus were home cinema, then the PB is a no brainer. But my focus is music, and films are an afterthought. But still... PB goes deeper and louder and it seems also that it is more or less as good as the sealed version for music (at least looking at measurements in https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-pb-1000-pro-sb-1000-pro, not sure about that). It would be too much for my room? I don't look for loud, but for nice... and I have neighbours so I can crank the volume up to "reference levels". Tough call.

- Why not go 'bigger'? Maybe the SVS SB-2000 if I spend a bit more? Sure it is a very nice sub! Maybe another brand? There are a lot of other brands than SVS... so many options.

In any case, I think a better sub coming. I don't which one, or when.

Best,
Kurt.-