Wow, Don - my history with Maggies is so similar - bought my first pair in 1979 (still have them), my MG2.5rs were built in 1988 although I bought them used in the 90s. I've driven them with tubes (Beard P100), Class A (Denon, can't remember the model; Mosfet (Nikko Alpha III - remember them?), QSC pro amps Class G or H I think, class AB - Audiolab and Nakamichi (Emotiva) and most recently class D (Apollon Hypex). I've repaired them (including ribbon replacement), biamped them, reframed them. Although they are no longer my main speakers I still have a soft spot for Maggies.
Your description is spot-on and characterises them perfectly IME.
I'll admit that I haven't tried a lot of class D amps on my Maggies (.7 and 1.6), but I've tried the Crown XLS series units and the ClassDAudio CDA254. Both sounded truncated, rolled off and thick in the treble with poor cymbal decay. My ancient Adcom GFA5400 solidly trounces both and has great treble detail (it is known for being dark sounding, but this not so with the Maggies) and my old Parasound HCA1500A has the most balanced sound overall with better controlled lows. So I'd probably recommend the Parasound A21, seeing that it is a newer incarnation of what I have.
Working on mine, friends, and as a dealer tech, I got real good at pulling the socks and putting them back for a while there.
You'll have done a staple count a number of times, then!
Me too. I am not saying there isn’t a technical explanation for this but rather that it is not a simplistic one of available power/current. I just don’t know what all parameters are involved in the process nor does anyone else that would explain it .. as yet.
This is consistent with my experience as well and hence my similar recommendation.
There are two aspects of driving Maggies. One, amps with good power/current capabilities improve the low end making the bass tighter. This is where the Adcoms have always done well with the Maggies, even relative to amps with the same power rating. I think this is where Class D amps if designed well can be good candidates. But it is hard to know which ones are until you audition. Not very different from selecting other types of amps.
Two, the tonal balance that makes the Maggies sound good and not induce fatigue (perhaps because of its SQ deficiencies in the higher end of the spectrum which I suspect) is that they do better with amps that slope down the last two octaves inherently or dynamically as an outcome of the impedance matches between them in that range. Hence, large correlations in expressed popular preferences over time with “MOSFET” amps (or even tube amps in the early days) rather than amps that are very linear or worse bright. B&Ks were good in this regard as long as speakers didn’t have any capacitative loads like the Maggies.
I realize that the above does not jive with the perfect transparency flatliners but, in my opinion, such people should not be buying Maggies to start with. It is a legitimate question to ask as to why one should buy a pair of speakers that are not possibly sonically perfect. Because, for many, once you get used to the transparent (in imaging not necessarily SQ) and lifelike imaging that they project (some inherent to flat panels), it is difficult to switch. It is like asking if you would buy a unit with Dirac room correction if the hardware it ran on (say a miniDSP) didn’t have perfect measurements but the package was reasonably priced. Or why buy a great driving car if it’s body panels aren’t as quiet as other models. Real life compromises.
So, to summarize my final thoughts on this thread (whether it is “politically correct” in this forum or not or passes muster with self-appointed hall monitors)
1. A well designed amp that puts out 150+W into nominal 4ohms and does not get fazed by the impedance curve and doesn’t get very hot doing so at the levels you would like is a safe bet. Using a sub woofer in conjunction with a Maggie helps a lot in this regard. It is much easier these days to incorporate a sub given the measuring instruments available. Measure for phase alignment and experiment with crossover frequencies rather than blindly use the 80hz thumb rule. Speaker positioning can make a lot of difference as to which crossover frequency works best with your models.
2. A perfectly linear amp is really not a good fit for the Maggies especially if your hearing is fairly sensitive above 12khz or so and you find many amps sound too bright or induce fatigue. So audition before you buy to make sure you can live with it.
3. Use room correction if you can. They make the Maggies less sensitive to placement as the minimum although you still need the air behind them. Experiment with both tweeters inside and tweeters outside configurations to see which sound stage suits you better.
And spend more time listening to music.
I don't know which Maggies you had, of course. I had MG 1.6 for 13 years, first driving them with an Amber S70 I had bought used, and later with a pair of Denon POA6600 mono blocks (I saw them in a second hand shop for a very good price and just could not resist). Both had no problem feeding the Maggies. A Naim poweramp I borrowed from a dealer went into oscillation and burned the fuses which protect the tweeters, so this one was not suited.My decades of experience with Maggies is that which amp gets the best out of them is not predictable by any specs or any common measurements. What makes a Maggie “sing” is almost voodoo magic. Some amps have it and some amps don’t. That is just the way it is.
Maggies aren’t like your typical speakers with relatively flat response just requiring sufficient power or current capability. They are temperamental beasts that sulk with some amps and open up with others even if both amps have similar specs. They can sound great with some sub $1000 amps and lousy with some $9000 amps.
I don't know which Maggies you had, of course. I had MG 1.6 for 13 years, first driving them with an Amber S70 I had bought used, and later with a pair of Denon POA6600 mono blocks (I saw them in a second hand shop for a very good price and just could not resist). Both had no problem feeding the Maggies. A Naim poweramp I borrowed from a dealer went into oscillation and burned the fuses which protect the tweeters, so this one was not suited.
Maggies do not represent a complex load (impedance is mostly like a resistor) but they are 4 ohm and inefficient so all you need is a power amp which enough power and happy to drive 4 Ohm. There's no voodoo or magic involved, just serious engineering like the Denons.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------My decades of experience with Maggies is that which amp gets the best out of them is not predictable by any specs or any common measurements. What makes a Maggie “sing” is almost voodoo magic. Some amps have it and some amps don’t. That is just the way it is.
Maggies aren’t like your typical speakers with relatively flat response just requiring sufficient power or current capability. They are temperamental beasts that sulk with some amps and open up with others even if both amps have similar specs. They can sound great with some sub $1000 amps and lousy with some $9000 amps.
Most of the time, they are purchased as status products (at least in the past now they are a little passè because of the size in the lifestyle crowd) and so the higher end Maggies tend to be paired with high-end status amps - Aragons, Pass Labs, etc. Wholly unnecessary.
The factory does not recommend Class D amps. Primarily because the early Class D amps didn’t do well when impedance dipped down to 1 ohm and they have not really tested with newer Class D amps.
The bottom line is at this price range, go to a dealer that will allow home auditions or can demo multiple amps with Maggies. When an amp matches the Maggies well, you WILL know it when you hear it. It is that stark of a difference for a good match. You can almost see the cymbals vibrate, the piano keys bounce and the bass strings vibrate when you close your eyes and hear. Not just because of the sound but the imaging which is the main reason to buy these speakers.
Companies like Adcom and B&K used to make amps that seemed like custom made for these speakers across the product line. Any of the Nelson Pass Stasis designs including the Nakamichis with licensed Stasis designs worked very well even when power rating was lower.
Not sure there are any contemporary brands that have a similar across the product line fit. Luckily I have not had to shop for new amps for mine for a long time. Many like Brystons but the reactions are mixed.
If I had to buy now, I would seriously audition Parasound Halo A21s.
Some tips: Avoid any of the mass market brands, not even the Marantz amps. NAD and Cambridge Audio are way too demure for these.
Things to look for - Powerful transformers and equally important - massive cooling capability both passive and active. Otherwise amps can run very hot driving Maggies especially when it begs to increase the volume because they sound so good and will not induce fatigue.
IIWI, I’d go Benchmark, one or a pair.So I've temporarily and inadvertently hijacked a couple of threads, so I thought I'd start a new thread to get some input. I'm ampless right now, so I need to order something soon. I'm driving Magnepan 3.7i.
Candidates:
Benchmark AHB2 (190 clean watts in to 4 Ohm, max 29A/channel)
Apollon's Purifi (275 or so clean watts into 4 Ohm, max 25A/channel)
Apollon's Hypex NC1200 (500+ clean watts into 4 Ohm, 38A/channel)
All good with 2 Ohm loads, the NC1200 even more so.
Of course all will supply more power at higher distortion. I would prefer two AHB2s, but I don't really want to pay that much.
What do you think? I'm leaning towards the NC1200 for the power, but the clean Purifi is tempting.
I don't, but you could email Magnepan. They are pretty good about answering such things.Does anyone happen to know the value of of the coil in the crossover of the .7?