Amp for Susvara?

[SpeleoFool]

(1) Which SolidState amp would be good? How about the Violectric 280 FE?

I have A90 on my desk currently, and it's good enough with Susvara that justice is done, but there's room for improvement. It's a very good option if you have one handy, or as a holdover while saving for more expensive amps.

I also have an older edition of V280 (from the 1st or 2nd appearance on Drop), and it has enough power for Susvara, though there's a bit of warmth to the sound that isn't specifically my favorite pairing for Sus. It's not bad, and I really respect that amp for being the one thing I own that drives everything from Susvara to 600 ohm 880s very well. I assume the FE specs are similar and would expect similar performance, barring some difference that might negate that.

I heard the Ferrum Oor at CANJAM and pre-ordered a stack w/ Hypsos. Still waiting on those to show up, but Oor drove Susvara magnificently, with thunderous bass and superb control and detail. I'll be replacing my A90 since Oor has a similarly small footprint, but sound quality closer to what I get from my speaker amp.

Speaking of which, Benchmark AHB2 remains a force to be reckoned with, per reports from other Susvara owners whose ears I trust. Needs a pre-amp, though, so final cost would be more than Oor. But it deserves a mention.

The Bakoon 13r was wonderful fun, but a different presentation; I've heard people describe it as "tube-like," and that makes sense to me. It has more warmth (more than V280) in a way where Sus came across as more "rich" than "accurate." It was an extremely compelling listen, but subjectively different from other SS chains that present more of a "clean and neutral" sound.

Finally, I have heard decently positive things about the GSX Mini. I haven't heard that chain, but noticed that HeadAmp has photos featuring Susvara, and I have heard from people who own it that it pairs well. Nominally, I feel like the Mini would be good competition for V280, having similar ability to drive a wide range of cans well.

Those are the main SS chains I've heard to date (at least the ones worth mentioning). It's hard to find cheaper amps that drive Susvara well; A90 seems to be an outlier in that regard.

(2) Any idea about Dan Clark Stealth (closed) Headphone?

Not really, on SS amps. I heard it at CANJAM on Amsandsound Nautilus (high end tubes) and really liked it, but reviews were mixed overall, with consensus among my friends at the show that it's ultimately pretty amp-dependent.

It's not as natural / "real" (e.g., convincing timbre / soundstage / dynamics) as Susvara, but it's incredibly light and comfortable, and has a closed back; it's hard to find great closed cans; Stealth is at least capable of greatness, with the right chains.

FWIW, I liked it better than R10P, but the Hifiman booth wasn't ideal (needed more music choices).

Thanks for your post. It was worth reading more than once.

Thanks.

 

[Meller]

I have A90 on my desk currently, and it's good enough with Susvara that justice is done, but there's room for improvement. It's a very good option if you have one handy, or as a holdover while saving for more expensive amps.

I also have an older edition of V280 (from the 1st or 2nd appearance on Drop), and it has enough power for Susvara, though there's a bit of warmth to the sound that isn't specifically my favorite pairing for Sus. It's not bad, and I really respect that amp for being the one thing I own that drives everything from Susvara to 600 ohm 880s very well. I assume the FE specs are similar and would expect similar performance, barring some difference that might negate that.

I heard the Ferrum Oor at CANJAM and pre-ordered a stack w/ Hypsos. Still waiting on those to show up, but Oor drove Susvara magnificently, with thunderous bass and superb control and detail. I'll be replacing my A90 since Oor has a similarly small footprint, but sound quality closer to what I get from my speaker amp.

Speaking of which, Benchmark AHB2 remains a force to be reckoned with, per reports from other Susvara owners whose ears I trust. Needs a pre-amp, though, so final cost would be more than Oor. But it deserves a mention.

The Bakoon 13r was wonderful fun, but a different presentation; I've heard people describe it as "tube-like," and that makes sense to me. It has more warmth (more than V280) in a way where Sus came across as more "rich" than "accurate." It was an extremely compelling listen, but subjectively different from other SS chains that present more of a "clean and neutral" sound.

Finally, I have heard decently positive things about the GSX Mini. I haven't heard that chain, but noticed that HeadAmp has photos featuring Susvara, and I have heard from people who own it that it pairs well. Nominally, I feel like the Mini would be good competition for V280, having similar ability to drive a wide range of cans well.

Those are the main SS chains I've heard to date (at least the ones worth mentioning). It's hard to find cheaper amps that drive Susvara well; A90 seems to be an outlier in that regard.


Not really, on SS amps. I heard it at CANJAM on Amsandsound Nautilus (high end tubes) and really liked it, but reviews were mixed overall, with consensus among my friends at the show that it's ultimately pretty amp-dependent.

It's not as natural / "real" (e.g., convincing timbre / soundstage / dynamics) as Susvara, but it's incredibly light and comfortable, and has a closed back; it's hard to find great closed cans; Stealth is at least capable of greatness, with the right chains.

FWIW, I liked it better than R10P, but the Hifiman booth wasn't ideal (needed more music choices).


Thanks.

Hi Speleo.., Thank you for the articulated and well put together informative message.

If I may ask you this question that might be somewhat boring to answer. Me having the Sennheiser 650, Sennheiser HD800S.. as major headphones. The 650 is fuller while the HD800s is more spread out and brings to surface things you couldnt hear in the other headphone..
I have tried the Focal Clear.. I chose the HD800S. Also I have the 1st Schiit Jotunheim amp with DAC in it.

Now to my question. If you would have a choice to buy these and had $5,000 to 10,000.00 to spend on headphone gear ()not need to spend all the money mentioned).
1. Which heaphone would you buy between these.
- Focal Utopia 2021
- Dan Clark Stealth (closed back)
- Hifiman Susvara
(while already having 2 headphones - Sennheiser 650 and Sennheiser HD800S) ?

2. Which 1 amp (already having a Schiit Jotunheim amp with DAC in it) ?

Thanks and kind regards.

 

[SpeleoFool]

Hi Speleo.., Thank you for the articulated and well put together informative message.

If I may ask you this question that might be somewhat boring to answer. Me having the Sennheiser 650, Sennheiser HD800S.. as major headphones. The 650 is fuller while the HD800s is more spread out and brings to surface things you couldnt hear in the other headphone..
I have tried the Focal Clear.. I chose the HD800S. Also I have the 1st Schiit Jotunheim amp with DAC in it.

Now to my question. If you would have a choice to buy these and had $5,000 to 10,000.00 to spend on headphone gear ()not need to spend all the money mentioned).
1. Which heaphone would you buy between these.
- Focal Utopia 2021
- Dan Clark Stealth (closed back)
- Hifiman Susvara
(while already having 2 headphones - Sennheiser 650 and Sennheiser HD800S) ?

2. Which 1 amp (already having a Schiit Jotunheim amp with DAC in it) ?

Thanks and kind regards.

Out of all that stuff, I haven't heard the Jot. HD650s were my first headphones (circa 2004), and all I owned until 2016 or so. I also own 800s--they're my favorite thing for gaming. Recently, I've tried them on tubes (ZMF Pendant) and found that sublime. Certain chains can have sharp treble w/ 800s, and tubes tame that.

As for your questions, if you don't need a closed back, don't get Stealth. For raw sound quality, both of the others are better. Then again, if you want a closed back for variety, maybe Stealth is the way to go?

Still, out of those 3, with room in the budget to even consider, get Susvara. I say this as a huge fan of Focal, lol:

For the longest time, I thought Utopias were perfect. Stellias were my daily drivers, since closed backs allowed me to bring them to the office. When I got Susvara, I wondered how they could possibly justify a 50% premium over Utopia, but one listen and it was obvious. Susvara is the most natural, believable audio delivery system I have heard outside of outrageously expensive 2-channel. I've heard a few summit cans now, and Susvara is still my favorite. They're just a pain to drive.

As for one amp, AHB2 with a Goldpoint stepped attenuator is the no-compromise easy choice.

Below that, it's hard to say. I really like Oor for its desktop-friendly footprint, but it's not the only thing that will drive Susvara well. There are some amps in the works, too. Holo is designing one around Susvara, I believe, and I know there's another one coming, but the name escapes me for now.

 

[raif71]

What about inserting a preamp like pre90 between the dac and amp for extra gain in power instead of finding the appropriate amp for Susvara?

 

[tifune]

Certain chains can have sharp treble w/ 800s, and tubes tame that.

I don't think I understand this, how do you mean?

 

[SpeleoFool]

I don't think I understand this, how do you mean?

One of the big mysteries getting into this hobby is "what is tube sound?" (and why do people like it?).

Its perhaps a gross over-generalization, but having heard a decent variety of headphones on several tube amps, the common factors seem to be a "smoothing" of treble and enhanced sense of soundstage depth / 3D imaging.

Meanwhile, 800S can have sharp treble / sibilance with certain tracks, and a tube amp can reduce the harshness without a great loss of detail.

Since this thread is about Susvara, I like both types of amps. A clean solid state amp like AHB2 delivers the most natural presentation, with spot-on timbre and realism. A tube amp (I have ZMF Pendant) can deliver a more "fluid" and subjectively engaging version of the music. The tubed version is arguable more intoxicatingly musical, but not as accurate.

I tend to prefer my tube amp for most music, most of the time, but like solid state for classical, orchestra, and scores--genres that showcase natural instruments. Electronic music, vocals, and a lot of rock is more forgiving, and I enjoy the musicality of tubes.

 

[Meller]

One of the big mysteries getting into this hobby is "what is tube sound?" (and why do people like it?).

Its perhaps a gross over-generalization, but having heard a decent variety of headphones on several tube amps, the common factors seem to be a "smoothing" of treble and enhanced sense of soundstage depth / 3D imaging.

Meanwhile, 800S can have sharp treble / sibilance with certain tracks, and a tube amp can reduce the harshness without a great loss of detail.

Since this thread is about Susvara, I like both types of amps. A clean solid state amp like AHB2 delivers the most natural presentation, with spot-on timbre and realism. A tube amp (I have ZMF Pendant) can deliver a more "fluid" and subjectively engaging version of the music. The tubed version is arguable more intoxicatingly musical, but not as accurate.

I tend to prefer my tube amp for most music, most of the time, but like solid state for classical, orchestra, and scores--genres that showcase natural instruments. Electronic music, vocals, and a lot of rock is more forgiving, and I enjoy the musicality of tubes.

Speleo,

As usual your input and experience sharing is very informative and useful.
From what I have read over time is that's the Violectric 280 being an SSD amp had some characteristics of tube amp.. Which means that the HD800S benefits a lot from it. Why wouldn't you say it is a real good amp of both worlds and so for the Susvara? I am asking because I am trying to figure out which amp to buy if I buy the Susvara and at the same time my HD800S should enjoy it..

Why I am avoiding tube amps and still trying to have (somewhat of its like) benefits from a none tube amp is simple. A tube amps needs tubes replacing the old tubes.. so on and so forth.

 

[atmadams]

I've had Susvara for a while, and just got back from CANJAM, so I've heard it on a variety of amps. FWIW, I bought a Ferrum Oor while I was there, specifically because of how well it drove Susvara. It will be replacing my A90 as my daily driver / desktop reference.View attachment 156445

FWIW, A90 is somewhat better than "barely can make it," but it also leaves room for improvement. My main SS reference for Susvara has been a spare 2 channels on my McIntosh 8207 surround amp. I have a Goldpoint level control in front of it for trim. The difference from A90 is slightly tighter bass, and slightly better separation. Magnitude of the difference is subtle but consistent enough that I stopped listening on A90 once I got the McIn-chain established.

I also have ZMF Pendant, which drives Susvara quite well. Tubes smooth the high end end a bit and soften dynamics. The overall sound is super-pleasant. I actually prefer this chain for most listening, except for orchestra and score music, where extra accuracy of SS yields more believable timbre. For things like vocals and electronic music, though, tubes are awesome.

My current SS reference amp is a Violectric V280, which has plenty of power for Susvara, but doesn't sound quite as neutral as A90 or my McIntosh chain. However, it is the only amp I own (save, perhaps, the Oor--I'll find out once it's delivered) that drives every headphone I own well, including both Susvara and the 600-ohm 880s. There's a bit of warmth to the sound that isn't really what I'm after with Susvara, specifically, but performance is still great.

While at CANJAM, I got to hear the Oor, Bakoon R13, Amps & Sound Nautilus, and a few other chains. The Oor was very reminiscent of my McIntosh setup, but in a tiny desktop form factor, which is why I jumped on it. Bass is slammy, and overall sound was quite lively at higher volumes, with clarity and detail sounding superb at lower volumes as well (at least to the extent I could tell before the show floor started to get busy).

The Bakoon is a bit of a meme-amp for Susvara, and I finally got to hear why. People have described it as "tube-like," which makes sense to me. I confirmed some detail extension sacrificed for a better "warm" than V280. Subjectively, it was one of the more pleasant amps I listened to, though I personally prefer more neutral-clean sound for Susvara, like I got from the Oor, and I'll go to Pendant for a more euphonic listening experience.

Finally, the Nautilus is seriously pricy, and tubes, so grain of salt and all that. However, it made every headphone I listened to sound its best. Mainly, I listened to my Verite Closed and Susvara, but I also spent some time with the new DCA Stealth and really liked it. Others in my group had more mixed opinions of Stealth, but I think everyone who heard it on Nautilus liked that chain. FWIW.

Anyway, apologies for a subjective brain dump, but I wanted to try to create a context for A90. It really is a fantastic amp and does "do justice" to Susvara, so if you go that route as a holdover, don't feel bad about it at all. It's enough amp to enjoy Susvara for however long it takes to let your wallet heal; there will always be more / different chains to try. It's also a standout for being so competent with Susvara at its price point.

How are you liking the Oor?

I just bought a Susvara and I’m hoping my little A90 is up to the task… sounds like it is for the time being.

Did you end up getting the fancy power supply too?

 

[muslhead]

How are you liking the Oor?

I just bought a Susvara and I’m hoping my little A90 is up to the task… sounds like it is for the time being.

Did you end up getting the fancy power supply too?

The a90 is more than up to the task. I used it with my susvaras' and it has more than enough power.
I did buy the vioectric v590 (v550 is same amp but without dac) and it is another great pairing. Something to consider when / if you want to try something else. I cant hear any difference but it gives me a one box solution, more headroom and better asthetics so i will likely be selling my a90 soon

 

[rmsanger]

 

[pimy]

The ULTIMATE Hifiman Susvara Review - Soundnews

My Video Review: I’m publishing headphone reviews starting with 2009, but if I’m looking deeper into my past, I’m doing them for at least 20 years, always ranking every single headphone that passed through these hands, so I wouldn’t forget any of them. Back in 2009, Sennheiser was releasing the...

soundnews.net

 

[Red@]

Lol

 

[FullBright1]

My issue with this Review he classifies as "does not work with the Susy", is that His overarching criteria for failing nearly every amp on his list is...

(i'll paraphrase).... It if does not drive the Susy to the point where the drivers burst into flames then : FAIL.

So, is that a Legit reason to dismiss ?

What if the criteria is this.... "does the amp play the gear to 85db, and has some top end left "
What if the criteria is...>"if the amp provides normal listening volume levels / with good sound".

The reviewer seemed to get caught up in...>"if it does not MAXX OUT the Susvara"... vs...>"this amp runs the Susy at good listening volumes and has a bit more on tap".

Also, when trying to get the Susy to perform......its High Current that matters, most, and not just pure outright Wattage.

 

[Meller]

I heard the Ferrum Oor at CANJAM and pre-ordered a stack w/ Hypsos. Still waiting on those to show up, but Oor drove Susvara magnificently, with thunderous bass and superb control and detail. I'll be replacing my A90 since Oor has a similarly small footprint, but sound quality closer to what I get from my speaker amp.

Hi. So, did you get the Ferrum Door and Hypsos? How is it going?

 

[SpeleoFool]

Hi. So, did you get the Ferrum Door and Hypsos? How is it going?

Sorry, been swamped at work and haven't popped in here for a while.

Yes, Hypsos and Oor have been my daily driver desktop rig since the end of November (about 2 1/2 months), and I couldn't be more pleased with this stack. It's a stunning combination of gobs of clean power, and a tiny footprint. It drives Susvara so nearly as well as my McIntosh 8207 speaker taps that I don't feel I'm compromising anything. If there are audible differences they're so minor as to require a good deal of concentration to detect, so it's essentially "perfect" for non-critical listening.

What really puts H+O over the top for me, though, is the ability to drive IEMs on low gain with little to no noise floor (I've gotten the slightest hint of mains noise with uber-sensitive IEMs like MAD24 and the pot off, but as soon as music is playing that's completely inaudible). I'm actually listening to Kato on that stack right now.

From comparing notes with others and from my own limited listening experience, it seems like there are a few other amps like AHB2 and one by RAAL (forget the model number) that some people prefer, but none are as desktop friendly as Oor, and that was an important requirement for my use case. H+O essentially does everything I need with every headphone I've throw at it. V280 comes close, but has a deep chassis and gain switches on the rear that make it less ideal for my setup. I also think Oor bests it with better transparency (V280 feels slightly warm to me, which is very welcome with many headphones, less to my tastes with a few that are already warm-tuned).

In so many words, I am completely happy with Hypsos + Oor in every regard. I'm personally done even thinking about other solid state amps. The last time I felt so confident about being at a real "endgame" was with Holo May. What's to improve?

 

[Meller]

Sorry, been swamped at work and haven't popped in here for a while.

Yes, Hypsos and Oor have been my daily driver desktop rig since the end of November (about 2 1/2 months), and I couldn't be more pleased with this stack. It's a stunning combination of gobs of clean power, and a tiny footprint. It drives Susvara so nearly as well as my McIntosh 8207 speaker taps that I don't feel I'm compromising anything. If there are audible differences they're so minor as to require a good deal of concentration to detect, so it's essentially "perfect" for non-critical listening.

What really puts H+O over the top for me, though, is the ability to drive IEMs on low gain with little to no noise floor (I've gotten the slightest hint of mains noise with uber-sensitive IEMs like MAD24 and the pot off, but as soon as music is playing that's completely inaudible). I'm actually listening to Kato on that stack right now.

From comparing notes with others and from my own limited listening experience, it seems like there are a few other amps like AHB2 and one by RAAL (forget the model number) that some people prefer, but none are as desktop friendly as Oor, and that was an important requirement for my use case. H+O essentially does everything I need with every headphone I've throw at it. V280 comes close, but has a deep chassis and gain switches on the rear that make it less ideal for my setup. I also think Oor bests it with better transparency (V280 feels slightly warm to me, which is very welcome with many headphones, less to my tastes with a few that are already warm-tuned).

In so many words, I am completely happy with Hypsos + Oor in every regard. I'm personally done even thinking about other solid state amps. The last time I felt so confident about being at a real "endgame" was with Holo May. What's to improve?

Dear Speleo..,

Thank you for sharing your experience about the Ferrum amp and its power supply the Hypsos with me/us. Your reply is music to the ears.
Well said, well written.

ZMF Verite Closed would work great with the Ferrum Oor you think?
Now comes the question: What DAC are you using? My present AMP (hoping to upgrade soon to Ferrum For&Hypsos) is an Amp Day combo.
Ever checked out the Ferrum Erco? The Hypsos can provide power to just one machine at a time? What is if using the Erco hw does the chain connect to one to the the other?

Thanks.

 

[Zenairis]

I have a Hifiman Susvara and a Topping A90/D90SE combo myself. I also use Silver Dragon cables on both my DAC/AMP interconnects and the Susvara's cable itself which make the presentation even smoother than the stock/copper cables (bass is still really tight, and cleaner than on the stock copper.)

From what I can tell the A90 produces a lot of detail on the Susvara and is silky smooth. The deal is though as most have said if you want the full experience of the Susvara - all of its sound stage and bass (which is already good on the A90) you need a powerhouse amp like the AHB-2 (Benchmark) or EF1000 (Hifiman.)

As I said if you have a A90 the Susvara is still really good. What I have wanted to try is the PRE90 inbetween the D90SE and the A90 on the Susvara. Unfortunately because of all the appliances in my house that need replacing and updating I can't shell out the extra for that and a extra pair of Silver Dragon interconnects.

If you want a comparison if you've heard the Gen 2 Arya the Susvara destroys the Gen 2 Arya in terms of neutrality and overall sound quality or timbre. Even though the Gen 2 Arya is an amazing headphone it just cannot keep up with how well rounded the Susvara's presentation is. It presents everything I've heard in such a way I've never heard it like this on any other headphone.

 

[Meller]

Sorry, been swamped at work and haven't popped in here for a while.

Yes, Hypsos and Oor have been my daily driver desktop rig since the end of November (about 2 1/2 months), and I couldn't be more pleased with this stack. It's a stunning combination of gobs of clean power, and a tiny footprint. It drives Susvara so nearly as well as my McIntosh 8207 speaker taps that I don't feel I'm compromising anything. If there are audible differences they're so minor as to require a good deal of concentration to detect, so it's essentially "perfect" for non-critical listening.

What really puts H+O over the top for me, though, is the ability to drive IEMs on low gain with little to no noise floor (I've gotten the slightest hint of mains noise with uber-sensitive IEMs like MAD24 and the pot off, but as soon as music is playing that's completely inaudible). I'm actually listening to Kato on that stack right now.

From comparing notes with others and from my own limited listening experience, it seems like there are a few other amps like AHB2 and one by RAAL (forget the model number) that some people prefer, but none are as desktop friendly as Oor, and that was an important requirement for my use case. H+O essentially does everything I need with every headphone I've throw at it. V280 comes close, but has a deep chassis and gain switches on the rear that make it less ideal for my setup. I also think Oor bests it with better transparency (V280 feels slightly warm to me, which is very welcome with many headphones, less to my tastes with a few that are already warm-tuned).

In so many words, I am completely happy with Hypsos + Oor in every regard. I'm personally done even thinking about other solid state amps. The last time I felt so confident about being at a real "endgame" was with Holo May. What's to improve?

Hi. Guess what!.. I got the Ferrum Oor with its helper the Hypsos.. Thank you for helping me understand it all. The Ferrum Oor is just solid amazing, reliable, clear, powerful and at its service consistently.

DAC is what I am debating; Chord Qutest, Denafrips Ares 2 or Denafrips Pontus 2.
Can’t decide.

 

[westyjeff]

I had access to the Susvara for awhile, at the time I had massdrop THX, RME ADI2 DAC, Cayin HA 300 tube headphone amp and a Crown 2502. These headphones sound amazing when driven with high current amplifiers, low volume was very nice but they excelled when the volume was turned up! After some time experimenting and listening at way to high volume levels both the owner and myself decided this headphone was amazing but was going to lead to early deafness. YMMV

 

[muslhead]

I had access to the Susvara for awhile, at the time I had massdrop THX, RME ADI2 DAC, Cayin HA 300 tube headphone amp and a Crown 2502. These headphones sound amazing when driven with high current amplifiers, low volume was very nice but they excelled when the volume was turned up! After some time experimenting and listening at way to high volume levels both the owner and myself decided this headphone was amazing but was going to lead to early deafness. YMMV

Agree 100%.