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Amp for Susvara?

tdx

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Hi all,

as the tile says, I just purchased a pair of Hifiman Susvaras and I'm kinda lost as to which amp to get for them. Currently I have a Matrix Audio Mini-i 3 Pro which I absolutely love but unfortunately the HP amp section doesn't seem to be enough to drive the Susvaras. So I have a couple of options, and would love your advice:
- I could keep the Mini as a DAC and then get an amp that's not too pricey to go with it and drive the Susvaras. (A90? Gustard H16? Singxer SA-1?)
- Or I sell it and get a stack (ot even an all in one) that has enough juice for the Susvaras. But in that case I'm even more lost, since there are so many possible options.

Either way trying not to spend a fortune (my wallet took a heavy hit from the Susvaras) but also I don't want a "barely can make it" amp that I would have to replace down the line because the headphones are not properly driven...

Would love to hear your thoughts and/or recommendations on this.

Thanks!
 
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Raex

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Hi all,

as the tile says, I just purchased a pair of Hifiman Susvaras and I'm kinda lost as to which amp to get for them. Currently I have a Matrix Audio Mini-i 3 Pro which I absolutely love but unfortunately the HP amp section doesn't seem to be enough to drive the Susvaras. So I have a couple of options, and would love your advice:
- I could keep the Mini as a DAC and then get an amp that's not too pricey to go with it and drive the Susvaras. (A90? Gustard H16? Singxer SA-1?)
- Or I sell it and get a stack (ot even an all in one) that has enough juice for the Susvaras. But in that case I'm even more lost, since there are so many possible options.

Either way trying not to spend a fortune (my wallet took a heavy hit from the Susvaras) but also I don't want a "barely can make it" amp that I would have to replace down the line because the headphones are not properly driven...

Would love to hear your thoughts and/or recommendations on this.

Thanks!
I'd recommend the A90, the Gustard won't be able to push it to its limits and the Singxer is load dependent and (at least the one I had for a few days) probably alter the sound because of this.

I'll maybe get scoldered for saying this but I tested this myself with my own pair of 400i's.

I did a frequency sweep with three different amps (A30pro, H16 and SA-1) all leveled within 0.2db at 1khz. The 400i's were not moved and a microphone was attached to them.
At most frequencies all three amps produced the same volume and while the H16 and the A30pro were within those 0.2db at every frequency I tested, the SA-1 had a small range where it would show a difference.
As far as I can remember it was somewhere between 300-500hz where it would produce a few db less than the other two and in the low end (<60hz) it would also produce about 1db less. Again the other two were always within margin of error while the SA-1 differed in every retest in the exact same way.
I don't know why exactly but thats what my unit did, therefore I'd recommend the A90.

Should be absolutely transparent and neutral, extremely clean and has the most power at the resistance of the Susvara.
 
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tdx

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Awesome thanks! In that case would you recommend keeping the Matrix as a DAC and pairing it with the A90, or selling it and getting say, a D90 instead?
 

Raex

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Awesome thanks! In that case would you recommend keeping the Matrix as a DAC and pairing it with the A90, or selling it and getting say, a D90 instead?
I'd say this depends on what you can still get for the Matrix, if you can sell it for a small enough loss then selling it and getting a D90SE is probably the way to go.
If the loss is too big (say if you bought it for €/$ 1k and sold it for €/$ 600) then I'd suggest keeping it. By itself the Matrix is a really good DAC and amp, it's however surpassed by the D90SE in pretty much every way.

Matrix = good enough
D90SE = best affordable solution
 
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tdx

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Got it thanks. One more question: one all in one solution I've seen discussed for the Susvaras is the Fluxlab FCN-10 DAC?Amp?streamer (https://fluxlab-acoustics.com/product/fcn-10/). Assuming I sold my Matrix, I might be able to get this for not much more than the A90/D90SE combo. Would you still recommend the Topping stack over it?

Thanks
 

Raex

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Got it thanks. One more question: one all in one solution I've seen discussed for the Susvaras is the Fluxlab FCN-10 DAC?Amp?streamer (https://fluxlab-acoustics.com/product/fcn-10/). Assuming I sold my Matrix, I might be able to get this for not much more than the A90/D90SE combo. Would you still recommend the Topping stack over it?

Thanks
Haven't seen any measurements of the FCN-10 nor owned one so I can't comment on it....seems absurdly powerful specwise though haha
 
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muslhead

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Keep the matrix and feed it to the a90, excellent combo. You wont be wanting for power
You can always upgrade the dac later. If you do expect to get killed on the sale of the matrix. They have not held their value very well. The smaller one has gotten a bit more (% wise) but still disappointingly low
 
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tdx

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Keep the matrix and feed it to the a90, excellent combo. You wont be wanting for power
You can always upgrade the dac later. If you do expect to get killed on the sale of the matrix. They have not held their value very well. The smaller one has gotten a bit more (% wise) but still disappointingly low
Just a little worried because the more I read about the A90 the more I get the feeling that, while it's amazing for the price, it doesn't seem to be driving the Susvaras really well according to owners. It seems to have the power but not the dynamics. Not sure if this is true but it's making me hesitate.
 

muslhead

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If the >4w balanced output of the A90 isnt going to do it you need to be very particular of what will then.
 
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tdx

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I see that makes sense. It gets so confusing when reading all these reports from owners, everyone has a different opinion. And without being able to audition the amps I have to buy sight unseen and hope I made the right choice....
 

muslhead

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I see that makes sense. It gets so confusing when reading all these reports from owners, everyone has a different opinion. And without being able to audition the amps I have to buy sight unseen and hope I made the right choice....
Fully understand but do you trust the numbers or people's opinions?
Mom always told me opinions are like BU^^holes. Everyone has at least one and most stink.
 

SpeleoFool

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Either way trying not to spend a fortune (my wallet took a heavy hit from the Susvaras) but also I don't want a "barely can make it" amp that I would have to replace down the line because the headphones are not properly driven...

I've had Susvara for a while, and just got back from CANJAM, so I've heard it on a variety of amps. FWIW, I bought a Ferrum Oor while I was there, specifically because of how well it drove Susvara. It will be replacing my A90 as my daily driver / desktop reference.
Fe + Susvara.jpg


FWIW, A90 is somewhat better than "barely can make it," but it also leaves room for improvement. My main SS reference for Susvara has been a spare 2 channels on my McIntosh 8207 surround amp. I have a Goldpoint level control in front of it for trim. The difference from A90 is slightly tighter bass, and slightly better separation. Magnitude of the difference is subtle but consistent enough that I stopped listening on A90 once I got the McIn-chain established.

I also have ZMF Pendant, which drives Susvara quite well. Tubes smooth the high end end a bit and soften dynamics. The overall sound is super-pleasant. I actually prefer this chain for most listening, except for orchestra and score music, where extra accuracy of SS yields more believable timbre. For things like vocals and electronic music, though, tubes are awesome.

My current SS reference amp is a Violectric V280, which has plenty of power for Susvara, but doesn't sound quite as neutral as A90 or my McIntosh chain. However, it is the only amp I own (save, perhaps, the Oor--I'll find out once it's delivered) that drives every headphone I own well, including both Susvara and the 600-ohm 880s. There's a bit of warmth to the sound that isn't really what I'm after with Susvara, specifically, but performance is still great.

While at CANJAM, I got to hear the Oor, Bakoon R13, Amps & Sound Nautilus, and a few other chains. The Oor was very reminiscent of my McIntosh setup, but in a tiny desktop form factor, which is why I jumped on it. Bass is slammy, and overall sound was quite lively at higher volumes, with clarity and detail sounding superb at lower volumes as well (at least to the extent I could tell before the show floor started to get busy).

The Bakoon is a bit of a meme-amp for Susvara, and I finally got to hear why. People have described it as "tube-like," which makes sense to me. I confirmed some detail extension sacrificed for a better "warm" than V280. Subjectively, it was one of the more pleasant amps I listened to, though I personally prefer more neutral-clean sound for Susvara, like I got from the Oor, and I'll go to Pendant for a more euphonic listening experience.

Finally, the Nautilus is seriously pricy, and tubes, so grain of salt and all that. However, it made every headphone I listened to sound its best. Mainly, I listened to my Verite Closed and Susvara, but I also spent some time with the new DCA Stealth and really liked it. Others in my group had more mixed opinions of Stealth, but I think everyone who heard it on Nautilus liked that chain. FWIW.

Anyway, apologies for a subjective brain dump, but I wanted to try to create a context for A90. It really is a fantastic amp and does "do justice" to Susvara, so if you go that route as a holdover, don't feel bad about it at all. It's enough amp to enjoy Susvara for however long it takes to let your wallet heal; there will always be more / different chains to try. It's also a standout for being so competent with Susvara at its price point.
 
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tdx

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Thanks this is very helpful! I actually decided to get an IDSD Pro as a DAC and a Burson Soloist as an amp, both were recommended for the Susvara. I'll try them once I get the HPs, hopefully it should be a good combo. Otherwise I'll def look at your other recommendations.
 

VariousArtists

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I've had Susvara for a while, and just got back from CANJAM, so I've heard it on a variety of amps. FWIW, I bought a Ferrum Oor while I was there, specifically because of how well it drove Susvara. It will be replacing my A90 as my daily driver / desktop reference.View attachment 156445

FWIW, A90 is somewhat better than "barely can make it," but it also leaves room for improvement. My main SS reference for Susvara has been a spare 2 channels on my McIntosh 8207 surround amp. I have a Goldpoint level control in front of it for trim. The difference from A90 is slightly tighter bass, and slightly better separation. Magnitude of the difference is subtle but consistent enough that I stopped listening on A90 once I got the McIn-chain established.

I also have ZMF Pendant, which drives Susvara quite well. Tubes smooth the high end end a bit and soften dynamics. The overall sound is super-pleasant. I actually prefer this chain for most listening, except for orchestra and score music, where extra accuracy of SS yields more believable timbre. For things like vocals and electronic music, though, tubes are awesome.

My current SS reference amp is a Violectric V280, which has plenty of power for Susvara, but doesn't sound quite as neutral as A90 or my McIntosh chain. However, it is the only amp I own (save, perhaps, the Oor--I'll find out once it's delivered) that drives every headphone I own well, including both Susvara and the 600-ohm 880s. There's a bit of warmth to the sound that isn't really what I'm after with Susvara, specifically, but performance is still great.

While at CANJAM, I got to hear the Oor, Bakoon R13, Amps & Sound Nautilus, and a few other chains. The Oor was very reminiscent of my McIntosh setup, but in a tiny desktop form factor, which is why I jumped on it. Bass is slammy, and overall sound was quite lively at higher volumes, with clarity and detail sounding superb at lower volumes as well (at least to the extent I could tell before the show floor started to get busy).

The Bakoon is a bit of a meme-amp for Susvara, and I finally got to hear why. People have described it as "tube-like," which makes sense to me. I confirmed some detail extension sacrificed for a better "warm" than V280. Subjectively, it was one of the more pleasant amps I listened to, though I personally prefer more neutral-clean sound for Susvara, like I got from the Oor, and I'll go to Pendant for a more euphonic listening experience.

Finally, the Nautilus is seriously pricy, and tubes, so grain of salt and all that. However, it made every headphone I listened to sound its best. Mainly, I listened to my Verite Closed and Susvara, but I also spent some time with the new DCA Stealth and really liked it. Others in my group had more mixed opinions of Stealth, but I think everyone who heard it on Nautilus liked that chain. FWIW.

Anyway, apologies for a subjective brain dump, but I wanted to try to create a context for A90. It really is a fantastic amp and does "do justice" to Susvara, so if you go that route as a holdover, don't feel bad about it at all. It's enough amp to enjoy Susvara for however long it takes to let your wallet heal; there will always be more / different chains to try. It's also a standout for being so competent with Susvara at its price point.
Thanks for your impressions - this is very timely for someone like me who is currently demoing the Susvara.

I always wanted to try another amp but my biggest concern is that I won't be able to tell the difference and it will be a waste of money for me in the end. I am not a critical listener at all but I am very curious if I will be able to have similar experience as you trying out different amps.
 

SpeleoFool

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I always wanted to try another amp but my biggest concern is that I won't be able to tell the difference and it will be a waste of money for me in the end. I am not a critical listener at all but I am very curious if I will be able to have similar experience as you trying out different amps.

Critical listening is a skill that develops over time, and with practice. I don't believe it's exclusive to people with "golden ears." In fact, I've had a lot of fun throwing Stellias on the heads of friends and family, and every single person (regardless of age & experience) has been able to tell that "something special" is going on, even if they can't easily articulate what. In any case, don't feel "underqualified," because you're not. You're the only one qualified to know what you like.

Some of the most frustrating (but ultimately good) advice I got when breaking into HiFi was to "listen to what you know." As someone with thousands of CDs and a huge mental catalogue of music, I was hoping someone might narrow down the options a little. And while I do believe there are some tracks that are objectively good for evaluating certain things (e.g., "Why So Serious?" for sub-bass), the hidden wisdom in that advice is that music is ultimately art, and different source material speaks to each of us. The music that music moves us is the same stuff we know best, so those tracks are the ones we're best equipped to pick up on subtleties and nuances between different presentations. Frankly, it's also what we want to "sound its best," whatever that means to each of us.

What's difficult is:
1. Identifying system bottlenecks / correctly attributing differences
2. Separating objective performance / behavior from subjective preferences

Every playback chain is a system, starting with recordings -> streaming -> DAC -> amplification -> transducers, and every link in that chain needs to be as strong as possible for the whole system to perform optimally. If another link in your chain is weak, then upgrading the amplifier might not make much difference. But if your amp is the weak link, then a better amp could make a comparatively huge difference. This is where objective measurements can be informative. For example, frequency response curves for headphones are kind of meaningless until you can correlate them with listening experience, but when you can say, "I liked X, but thought the bass rolled off too soon," then you can compare a frequency graph for X with one for Y and make a guess about whether its tuning might be more or less to your liking. It takes time and experience to figure out stuff like this, but eventually things will start to correlate and you'll find a way to navigate.
Sussing out which link in the chain is the weak one or responsible for some good or bad contribution can be super tedious. The only way to be sure is to isolate variables to the maximum extent possible, and then change one thing at a time. And then do it again. And a couple more times. And come back tomorrow and do it all over. It's impossible to fully weed out things like placebo, mood, fatigue, etc., but repeat testing like this will tell you a few things: (a) is the change repeatable? (b) is the magnitude obvious? (c) does the difficulty of discerning repeatable differences exceed your interest in doing so? If you can answer "yes" to C, congratulations--you have reached your endgame. :)

Finally, I firmly believe the whole point of this hobby (as a listener, anyway) is to get as much enjoyment as possible from our music. My personal definition of an audio chain is: an apparatus that converts audio recordings into emotional response. There is a lot of science behind preserving signal quality and integrity, but the final step is inherently and necessarily subjective since music is art and its meaning is personal. This is where experience and subjective reviews can be particularly helpful. If you find people with similar tastes or experience with chains you know, then you can compare notes to see what you each like / dislike. It's a bit like talking about favorite meals and how to prepare them to perfection.

I like visual metaphors, and I've shared these following images a few places to try to help describe my personal ideals, what I like about them, and to underscore that more than one presentation style might be appealing.

Susvara on a powerful, neutral SS amp renders music with the best realism [IMO] that I've heard from any personal audio chain. Everything in the mix is clearly and cleanly rendered, with outstanding separation and very natural staging. It's like the musical equivalent of a bright, sunny day, where every blade of grass is rendered, and you can see deep into the horizon.
Bright-Sunlight-1.jpg


Meanwhile, my other favorite chain is Verite Closed on tubes (ZMF Pendant, specifically). That presentation is not like Susvara, and isn't really trying to be. VC sounds amazingly open for a closed headphone, and has a huge soundstage unlike anything else I've experienced in any other closed back. Music is rendered in a huge canopy, with super lush mids / vocals that are much more intimate. Tubes add a smoothness that gives the whole sound a sense of refinement without any fatigue. The overall VC experience is every bit as compelling to me as Susvara, but for totally different reasons.
alternative-amazing-art-artist-Favim.com-4058427.jpg


--

Well, if my last post wasn't enough of a brain dump, this one certainly is, lol. If I haven't scared you off or hopelessly confuse you, let me circle back to your main concerns:

  • Can I hear a difference between amps? Yes, I'd wager you are able to recognize differences when they present. It gets easier with experience and practice, but it starts with those "I just heard something in this track that I've never heard before" moments.

  • Will I hear a difference / will it make a difference? That's harder to answer since there may be convoluting factors such as system botlenecks, hearing ability, listening skills, relative interest in listening to lots of gear vs a "good enough & get out" approach, etc. Personal priorities, means, and preferences can have a large impact on how far it makes sense to push the envelope.
The good news is, there's no reason you need to try out a bunch of amps. It's something you can choose to do to figure out whether you hear a difference worth paying for. Given the cost of the headphones, I personally think it's worth investing in a very capable amp. If I hadn't already had a couple channels free on my McIntosh amp, I'd most likely have piled on the AHB2 bandwagon, since plenty of people seem to like that amp for Susvara, specifically, and it measures objectively outstanding.

A90 is a solid choice for Susvara if you simply want to start great and try for better. It's hard to convey the magnitude of improvements from A90 to other amps, but I find the improvements both minor and obvious--minor enough that I won't feel [even slightly] bad about bass or separation on A90, but obvious enough that I can easily recognize and appreciate the improvement on my big chain. It's like getting the sear just right on a really fine steak, if that translates for you (point is, it's minutia that makes the meal). It's easier for me to know when it's right than for me to describe exactly what makes it right, though I've been able to find like-minded people who recognize and appreciate some of the same nuances that I appreciate, and that process of comparing notes has convinced me that what I'm picking up on and describing must be coming from the playback chain (unless it's just confirmation bias, in which case at least we're having fun, lol).

Hope that helps. That's kind of a crash course in my whole audio journey over the past few years. :cool:
 

VariousArtists

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Wow thank you so much for the detailed response! Lots of food for thought for me over a weekend.

This is a really great way to think about audio as a hobby. IMO Science/objective performance is the foundation for audio equipment to make sure that we are always improving the bottom line and to weed out the snake oil, but ultimately pursuing a hobby is about having fun which is why personal perceptions and emotions are so important, even if some or most of it might be placebo.

Btw I love this as a final reality check for the hobby: “ (c) does the difficulty of discerning repeatable differences exceed your interest in doing so? If you can answer "yes" to C, congratulations--you have reached your endgame.”
 

Meller

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(1) Susvara on a powerful, neutral SS amp renders music with the best realism [IMO] that I've heard from any personal audio chain. Everything in the mix is clearly and cleanly rendered, with outstanding separation and very natural staging. It's like the musical equivalent of a bright, sunny day, where every blade of grass is rendered, and you can see deep into the horizon.


(2) Meanwhile, my other favorite chain is Verite Closed on tubes (ZMF Pendant, specifically). That presentation is not like Susvara, and isn't really trying to be. VC sounds amazingly open for a closed headphone, and has a huge soundstage unlike anything else I've experienced in any other closed back. Music is rendered in a huge canopy, with super lush mids / vocals that are much more intimate. Tubes add a smoothness that gives the whole sound a sense of refinement without any fatigue. The overall VC experience is every bit as compelling to me as Susvara, but for totally different reasons.



(1) Which SolidState amp would be good? How about the Violectric 280 FE?

(2) Any idea about Dan Clark Stealth (closed) Headphone?

Thanks for your post. It was worth reading more than once.


 
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