After the hype of Chinese HiFi brands, what is the jury?

[tmtomh]

It is not OEM manufacturing if the company owns its own manufacturing facility, as KEF's parent company appears to. Or, take Chinese owned IAG which has manufacturing facilities in China, design capability in China, does much of its prototyping and pretty much all of its production engineering as well as manufacture in China, and owns Wharfedale, Quad, Mission, Audiolab, Castle, and the revived Leak name recently, among its "British" brands. At what point does it become a Chinese company? I don't actually know the answer to that question, but I do know that it represents a Chinese hifi industry that is way, way beyond Topping and SMSL, and one that befits a market of hundreds of millions of potential buyers, the largest market in the world. Leaving aside politics as we should here, what's the problem? The problem is that you don't seem to want to recognise that.

As another aside, when did Marantz stop being a US brand, or has it ever? Is it Japanese now? For most of its life the brand has been US owned. Even when it was a Japanese corporation as part of D&M, US funds and companies were the ultimate owners. One of the companies in the group owns the Chinese arm of whatever they are called this year, which again appears to own its own manufacturing facilities but also clearly has a hand in design, given the choice to make the Model 40 as a class AB amp and not to move it to Hypex or similar as the Japanese arm is increasingly doing.

Then we have to turn back to your comment about Harman:

So, how do you explain Harman suddenly restricting the amount of that research we depend on that is published, a decision made shortly after Samsung took over? How do you explain the sudden appearance of what is probably Chinese OEM production of clearly Arcam designed platforms appearing in Harman brand ranges, when the only connection Harman have with Arcam is that both firms are owned by Samsung? Again, at what point do these become Korean managed companies and Korean owned brands?

I don't have the answers to these questions. What I do know is that it would be incredibly stupid to run Harman as a completely independent entity to one of the world's largest and best resourced companies, whose expertise in almost every area outside of loudspeaker design would be way, way beyond its hifi subsidiaries.

Also, if you want to know how all this can go off the rails, you might want to read up on the recent history of "British" brand, Tannoy.

Anyway, that appears to all be off topic, but you did carry on the conversation rather than just shut me down.

On topic - I still can't let you get away with tarring a decades old industry with the sometimes patchy record of the recent Topping and its ilk, and I still think you need to clarify even further. It's still good to try and discuss this though.

A very thoughtful set of comments, and a great illustration of why the whole "Chi-fi" term makes less and less sense every year. Yes, it is sometimes used in a racist or xenophobic way, and that's very bad - but the broader problem with the term is that any nation-based label for products these days is less accurate than it was many years ago. In the 1970s, American, Japanese, and European hi-fi gear (and cars, and other stuff) was much more clearly a product of people and technology based in those countries. Not 100% for sure, but much less globalized than today.

With that said, I also have to say, all the static @CleanSound has been getting in this thread, for example in comments from @Travis and more recently @Shadrach , seems a little overblown to me. Folks are pointing out the limitations and flaws in the categories used in the poll and the framing of this discussion, which is fine and justified. But then the critiques move to, "this is completely flawed," and "it would have been good if the OP had treated the readership with a little more respect." The concept of "Chi-fi" gets thrown around these forums, explicitly and implicitly, in sloppy and thoughtless ways all the time, and I see this thread as an opportunity to maybe change that. So I appreciate CleanSound starting this thread and being so clear about the definitions - which they have been, repeatedly, despite what some others are trying to claim.

If the definitions break down when you examine them closely and really think about them, that's a good thing - it doesn't mean CleanSound shouldn't have mentioned them at all, since it's obvious to anyone who can read that many, many members here use those definitions in all kinds of discussions around this forum.

 

[Mart68]

I disagree. See post #155 for clarification.

sorry it still doesn't work for me. We've had transparent DACs since the 1980s. We know this, we can't get exited about a DAC even if they are now pushing the boundaries of what's possible in an engineering exercise.

Ofc being a typical reserved Englishman I don't tend to get excited about much (exception - Lindsay Lohan in 'Mean Girls').

I mean you might get me to grudgingly raise an eyebrow if it's something really impressive.

So maybe it's just my perspective.

 

[fpitas]

What is it about the word "hype" you don't understand?

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Ron Texas]

And that is why I have option 1 on the poll "What do you mean 'after the hype?' The hype is real."

But to be fair, others, including myself, are pointing out concerns such as reliability and local support. I personally also don't feel Chinese brands make their products to international market's tastes/needs compare to non-Chinese brands' product lineups.

If a $200 DAC or amplifier breaks you throw it out. Service isn't a factor.

 

[Digby]

Ofc being a typical reserved Englishman I don't tend to get excited about much (exception - Lindsay Lohan in 'Mean Girls').

How very English of you

 

[CleanSound]

They used to say that about Japan too, how ridiculous.
Keith

It's not ridiculous at all, but it is overly ridiculous to keep thinking like that.

Chinese company clearly have started to innovate, but that is arguably only in recent times, maybe in the last decade or so. And I believe, their rate of innovation will accelerate. Eventually, Chinese companies will become a market leader in some segments, if they haven't already (ie. solar panels.).

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

And that is why I have option 1 on the poll "What do you mean 'after the hype?' The hype is real."

But to be fair, others, including myself, are pointing out concerns such as reliability and local support. I personally also don't feel Chinese brands make their products to international market's tastes/needs compare to non-Chinese brands' product lineups.

A better phrasing for your option 1 might have been "What hype? The hype is warranted."

 

[CleanSound]

A better phrasing for your option 1 might have been "What hype? The hype is warranted."

That also can work. There are many ways to skin a cat. Some better for others.

 

[CleanSound]

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Please see post #155 for clarification.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

That also can work. There are many ways to skin a cat. Some better for others.

sure, but your wording doesn't really even make sense. "The hype is real?" So...it's a fact that these products are being hyped? Maybe I'm alone, but I didn't interpret that option as being the "Chinese stuff is good by me" option...

 

[CleanSound]

If a $200 DAC or amplifier breaks you throw it out. Service isn't a factor.

Many, including myself, have issues with that. Some, including myself, don't like to just throw things out after a short life for many reasons including wastefulness and environmental impact.

 

[Galliardist]

Plenty.

Honestly, I've had two HDD failures in the last 10 years and both (I think) were attributable to SMPS failures. The computer PSU got so much ripple and instability that it crashed the drives. after investigation, new PSUs solved the issues. But not before losing some data and killing the drives.

I had a recent one, that I initially blamed the HDD, only to work out it was Win10 taking so long to shutdown the PC (after it had turned off) that I'd pullled the plug once too often, not seeing the PC power light was still on. After a clean repartition and format- it's still fine. I'm using it now.

Pity the data didn't survive... With hindsight, I could have saved it, if I'd known windows doesn't differentiate between the boot SSD drive and the HDD data drive failure and just lumps it all into an overall system failure... If your four main folders are pointed to another drive (other than the system drive) and for some reason, it can't get a valid read- it crashes badly. Pull the crashed drive out, boot up with no data drive and, bingo, Windows boots up perfectly fine- just doesn't know where anything much (data) is. Put a new drive in, create the folders, point the OS to them and all is good. Although it still remembers where something should be, but isn't, but that's not as bad as losing your entire system and every program is it?

Sure there's a few programs like LTSPICE and some other CAD/Imaging programs that can't handle a crashed and replaced data drive, but they are (free) and easy enough to rebuild/re-install.

Never again will I trust MS telling me what's wrong. I'll pull the drives and throw them into my SATA dock and do what I've always done- fix it myself.

The lifespan of drives where I work has been around seven years in laptops. Larger 3.5” drives , it’s dependent on the quality of the drive and the job they have: the cheapest Seagates fail fairly quickly, others last 8-10 years. I’m see relatively few 3.5” HDDs in desktops these days, the drives are in cases or small RAID devices.

As for SSDs, anyone’s guess.Literally. The ones directly on the system board seem not to fail quickly which is fortunate, under the circumstances.

Trust nothing. Back up everything more than once. If your hardware doesn’t get you, your software will; and the data is always worth more than the drive.

 

[CleanSound]

sure, but your wording doesn't really even make sense. "The hype is real?" So...it's a fact that these products are being hyped? Maybe I'm alone, but I didn't interpret that option as being the "Chinese stuff is good by me" option...

Perhaps it's cultural and generational. The term, "The hype is real" is common in America, in the 90's, 2000's 2010's and even 2020's. At least where I live.

 

[JSmith]

Chinese know how to make things cheap, but don’t know how to invent things.

Not sure if you meant it as such, due to possibly being lost in translation... but as it stands this comment isn't appropriate, as we're talking about Hi-Fi companies, not the 1.4B people that you erroneously suggest are not inventive.


JSmith

 

[sergeauckland]

If a $200 DAC or amplifier breaks you throw it out. Service isn't a factor.

That, if I may say so, is one of the (many) reasons why the world is in the state it's in. Regardless of price, everything should be repairable, and without costing as much as it would to buy new. Whether something I bought is $200, $20 or $20,000, if it breaks I would want it repaired.

S.

 

[CleanSound]

sorry it still doesn't work for me. We've had transparent DACs since the 1980s. We know this, we can't get exited about a DAC even if they are now pushing the boundaries of what's possible in an engineering exercise.

Ofc being a typical reserved Englishman I don't tend to get excited about much (exception - Lindsay Lohan in 'Mean Girls').

I mean you might get me to grudgingly raise an eyebrow if it's something really impressive.

So maybe it's just my perspective.

LOL. Love it! And if anyone doesn't get excited with Lindsay Lohan is dead inside.

 

[Travis]

Some examples of Chinese brands (and they all so happened to also be manufactured in China):
Topping
SMSL
Matrix Audio
Gustard
Nio (electric car company)

Thank you.

I missed the “hype”, happy for that, the reviews on Amazon regarding those products in terms of shipping, defects, etc. speak for themselves.

 

[aslan7]

I have a Topping DX 7 Pro for a couple of years and love it. It is well built, sounds great, and is totally reliable. I’d like the newer + version but probably wouldn’t hear any difference. Chinese manufacturing is no different than any other country and they make some wonderful things with advanced engineering.

 

[CleanSound]

Not sure if you meant it as such, due to possibly being lost in translation... but as it stands this comment isn't appropriate, as we're talking about Hi-Fi companies, not the 1.4B people that you erroneously suggest are not inventive.


JSmith

I'd would give him the benefit of doubt that he means Chinese companies and the current framework and culture of innovation in China. As you mention, it would be ridiculous for anyone to assume 1.4b people can't innovate and invent, especially given the history of pivotal Chinese inventions such as the compass and paper just to name a few.

 

[Tangband]

First, this is an analysis and discussion of current consumers' sentiment of Chinese HiFi brands after a remarkable and disruptive market entry; this is not a bashing of Chinese HiFi brands, so please be respectful and fair with your comments.

Moderators, I am not sure how you feel about this thread but if you don't think this thread is appropriate, please kindly intervene.

Clarification: I am not talking about Chinese manufacturing, I am talking about HiFi brands that are Chinese in origin, where the corporate headquarter is in China, and the design and engineering are conducted physically in China and the businesses sells the products as their own brand.

Some background: For many decades Chinese companies has been OEM and ODM manufacturers for ages. It started off with their manufacturing quality being not so great to mastering it. Many factories are ISO certified and the quality of some of their high end manufacturing is quite impressive. In fact, all of your revered Revel speakers, including the Salon, are made in China, not to mention your iPhones and much more.

Over the years and decades these Chinese OEM/ODM has gain experience and skills (albeit some are forced technology transfer by way of doing business in China and some are, let's be very honest here and call it what it is, patent and trade secret infringements, but that's besides the point). As the Chinese economy grows so are their ambition to move up in the value chain.

Instead of being OEM/ODM, it's time to market their own designs and products to the international market. Hence, the birth of many domestic branded companies and products, and in the world of HiFi, they are the trail blazing, high end, Matrix Audio and Denafrips, followed by superior performance market leaders such as Topping, SMSL, Gustard to name a few.

But what is so special about these Chinese HiFi brands? Superior audio performance (objective of course, this is ASR after all) at unheard of price points. A $800 DAC will out perform audibly anything Japan, North America and Europe has or can offer at easily half of the price.

Wow, what a big bang way to enter a world stage party.

But after, maybe a decade now or maybe a little less than a decade. And after this flashy coming out party for these Chinese HiFi brands. . .what are consumers current sentiment?

Across different internet channels (including ASR) I have noticed an uptick of "complaints" if you will. They largely revolve around (1) reliability (2) local support/customer service (3) aesthetics/industrial design not to international markets' taste. Though (3) is tricky, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone cares.

What are your sentiments on Chinese HiFi brands after the hype? Before you answer, keep in mind if you want more, such as (1), (2) and (3) above, the price will increase, potentially to the levels of Japanese, North American and European brands.

Aiyima a04 = bargain of this century.
Moondrop LAN = very bad sounding IEM headphone.
Conclusion - its a gamble and we better dont trust reviews without listening.