Active sub, use "thru" to active speakers or 2nd DAC-output?

[MNMLSM]

Hi guys,

so if everything goes right, I should get my MOTU M2 tomorrow.
I have a beginner question, from an audio quality perspective, is it better to use the thru-output from an active subwoofer to the active speakers (variante 1) or to use both outputs of the MOTU M2, one direct to the sub and one direct to the active speakers (variante 2)?

I know it's a cheap sub but I really love the small Submini2 from Fostex in my tiny room. Speakers are the Mackie MR524, I got them after my Yamahas, JBL, KRK and Adams and I'm still amazed by their clarity and precision, especially with well recorded electronic music.

Do you think both variantes make a different in sound quality? (I would use unbalanced cables)
Does a cheaper sub like the Fostex worsen the sound when it "passes" the sound to active speakers?

 

[Berwhale]

I would try both ways and see what you think. I'm currently considering the purchase of the Fostex SubMini2 to compliment my Tannoy Reveal 402's. The Subminin2 appears to be designed for desktop use, but my space is limited and i'd have to make other compromises to fit it on there. Do you have yours on the floor or on your desk?

 

[QMuse]

Hi guys,

so if everything goes right, I should get my MOTU M2 tomorrow.
I have a beginner question, from an audio quality perspective, is it better to use the thru-output from an active subwoofer to the active speakers (variante 1) or to use both outputs of the MOTU M2, one direct to the sub and one direct to the active speakers (variante 2)?

I doubt there would be an audible difference between those 2 variants so you can use whichever suits you best from the cable paths perspective.

 

[MNMLSM]

I would try both ways and see what you think. I'm currently considering the purchase of the Fostex SubMini2 to compliment my Tannoy Reveal 402's. The Subminin2 appears to be designed for desktop use, but my space is limited and i'd have to make other compromises to fit it on there. Do you have yours on the floor or on your desk?

Hi mate,
I used to place it on the floor but I wasn't satisfied with the "dry punches". Since a few weeks the sub is placed under my desk on an IKEA leg, in-between is one iso pad. I'm quite happy now and it doesn't take too much room. I would try to get the sub a bit up it improved the lows in my room but the results straight on the floor were also way better than I expected.

 

[MNMLSM]

I have a weird impression,

usually I'm not the guy who believes in Voodoo but I'm 100% sure there's a difference in sound.

I got the MOTU M2 yesterday, I also ordered a pair of balanced cables.
I we refer to psychoacoustics I should get the impression that the balanced connection sounds better because it's a bit louder.

BUT

the unbalanced output sounds way better than the balanced? the balanced sounds harsher.
Is there any explanation or is there no chance you won't believe me? It's a huge difference!

Big problem is, if I connect the setup via unbalanced I get a noticeable humming on low volume.

Do you guys have any explanation, I would really appreciate it?

UPDATE

My girlfriend is there for a visit, she's has absolutely no clue about audio-components and connections.
I asked her to listen to the same song 2x times for about a minute, I tried to get the same volume level.
She listened to both setups and after finishing she said immediately that the first run sounded way better, the first one was the unbalanced connection.

 

[pozz]

I have a weird impression,

usually I'm not the guy who believes in Voodoo but I'm 100% sure there's a difference in sound.

I got the MOTU M2 yesterday, I also ordered a pair of balanced cables.
I we refer to psychoacoustics I should get the impression that the balanced connection sounds better because it's a bit louder.

BUT

the unbalanced output sounds way better than the balanced? the balanced sounds harsher.
Is there any explanation or is there no chance you won't believe me? It's a huge difference!

Big problem is, if I connect the setup via unbalanced I get a noticeable humming on low volume.

Do you guys have any explanation, I would really appreciate it?

Easiest thing would be to check the levels. Balanced may be clipping or overloading the Mackie inputs.

Unrelated, did you used to post at mnml.nl?

 

[MNMLSM]

Easiest thing would be to check the levels. Balanced may be clipping or overloading the Mackie inputs.

Unrelated, did you used to post at mnml.nl?

Thanks for the quick response, that page is Dutch, quite similar to German but no, never heard of that site.


How would I check that exactly, I can see on the MOTU Output Display that there's no overclipping (always in the green range), if I use the balance connection it's the same? The volume knob of the Mackies is in the middle, no excessive gain in the volume range.

I already have an USB isolator which did a great job up to now but the MOTU needs too much juice and seems to use more bandwidth. If I try to connect it everything works fine but I can't play music (because the buffer is maxed immediately).

So now I really don't know what to do.
My current setup with the M2 and the unbalanced output is the best sound I've ever experienced in my own room it sounds absolutely perfect.
The variant without humming would be the balanced but it just sounds way worse. Hmmmm.
When I connect the MOTU to my laptop and use the unbalanced OUT, it's absolutely silent.

a bad paint sketch:

balanced to the monitors (bad sound)

unbalanced to the monitors (perfect sound, but frustrating buzzing)

 

[QMuse]

I have a weird impression,

usually I'm not the guy who believes in Voodoo but I'm 100% sure there's a difference in sound.

I got the MOTU M2 yesterday, I also ordered a pair of balanced cables.
I we refer to psychoacoustics I should get the impression that the balanced connection sounds better because it's a bit louder.

BUT

the unbalanced output sounds way better than the balanced? the balanced sounds harsher.
Is there any explanation or is there no chance you won't believe me? It's a huge difference!

Big problem is, if I connect the setup via unbalanced I get a noticeable humming on low volume.

Do you guys have any explanation, I would really appreciate it?

UPDATE

My girlfriend is there for a visit, she's has absolutely no clue about audio-components and connections.
I asked her to listen to the same song 2x times for about a minute, I tried to get the same volume level.
She listened to both setups and after finishing she said immediately that the first run sounded way better, the first one was the unbalanced connection.

Probably because of distortion caused by level being too high. This introduces clipping which injects many high order harmonics into the signal causing "harsh" sound.

 

[MNMLSM]

Probably because of distortion caused by level being too high. This introduces clipping which injects many high order harmonicsinto the signal causing "harsh" sound.

Thanks, my post was blocked the first minutes. In case you missed it, I don't know if it is useful:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-speakers-or-2nd-dac-output.13325/post-400535

 

[QMuse]

Thanks, my post was blocked the first minutes. In case you missed it, I don't know if it is useful:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-speakers-or-2nd-dac-output.13325/post-400535

Ops, I got it wrong. You need to find a way to attenuate balanced signal. Unbalanced will always be noisy with long cables.

 

[MNMLSM]

I think you guys were right, the Mackies were too loud.
Usually the volume knob is @ 50%,
the balanced OUT is way louder so I changed it at the back @ 25%.

Balanced sounds great now too, I will do some last testing tomorrow, but I think that was the problem.
Thanks guys!

 

[Berwhale]

The 'volume' knob on the Mackie's controls the input level and this needs to be adjusted according to the input. So I think that when you match levels between balanced and unbalanced, you need to do this using the input level knob on the speakers and not using the volume control on the Motu. In other words, you need to attenuate the balanced signal (as QMuse mentions above) coming into the Mackie's using the input level control on each monitor.

 

[Berwhale]

I think you guys were right, the Mackies were too loud.
Usually the volume knob is @ 50%,
the balanced OUT is way louder so I changed it at the back @ 25%.

Also see #9 in the Quick Start section of Mackie manual: https://mackie.com/sites/default/fi...UALS/Owners_Manuals/MR_Studio_Monitors_OM.pdf

 

[MNMLSM]

The 'volume' knob on the Mackie's controls the input level and this needs to be adjusted according to the input. So I think that when you match levels between balanced and unbalanced, you need to do this using the input level knob on the speakers and not using the volume control on the Motu. In other words, you need to attenuate the balanced signal (as QMuse mentions above) coming into the Mackie's using the input level control on each monitor.

Thanks for your help, highly appreciated.

In other words, you need to attenuate the balanced signal (as QMuse mentions above) coming into the Mackie's using the input level control on each monitor
Sorry, I don't understand this part, my English lacks with the term "attentuate".

You refer to this part:

So basically it was right what I did?
Set the level on the Mackies to a lower point so that the music should begin to become really loud not before it reaches the last 20% (as example) of the MOTU knob.

 

[pozz]

The 'volume' knob on the Mackie's controls the input level and this needs to be adjusted according to the input. So I think that when you match levels between balanced and unbalanced, you need to do this using the input level knob on the speakers and not using the volume control on the Motu. In other words, you need to attenuate the balanced signal (as QMuse mentions above) coming into the Mackie's using the input level control on each monitor.

Right.

The max signal coming out of the balanced TRS in the M2 is 16dBu, while the Mackies can only accept a max of 4dBu.

 

[MNMLSM]

Right.

The max signal coming out of the balanced TRS in the M2 is 16dBu, while the Mackies can only accept a max of 4dBu.

and that means that the MOTU balanced output and Mackie are not compatible?

 

[Berwhale]

So basically it was right what I did?

Yes

 

[Berwhale]

and that means that the MOTU balanced output and Mackie are not compatible?

No, it means you have to use the input level adjustment on the Mackie's. That is why it is there.

The input level control on the Mackie's controls the level coming into the monitor's amplifier, not the volume coming out of the speaker. It's a subtle, but important difference.

 

[MNMLSM]

As I already wrote yesterday, today I did some last testing.

1. I removed the subwoofer from the whole setup.

2. I lowered the Level on the Mackie on the right side, according to the advice from the manual, the MOTU knob is raised to about 80%, the music is now loud, but not too loud. Connection is balanced straight to the Mackie.

3. I take a cinch cable, take the left unbalanced output and go straight in the left Mackie Cinch-Input. I level at the backside, the volume is now the same as on the right.

4. I start to play a song, i go in the Windows Mixer and switch between left and right output:


5. I test a second balanced cable (maybe one is damaged), same result.

There is a difference, the unbalanced OUT still sounds way better, more dynamic, bass is tighter, voice more harmonic.

Asked a 2nd person again, person said the left sounds better and didn't know about the setup.

Now I have a problem, as I already wrote, the unbalanced OUT is the best sound I've experienced so far but there is constant, pretty quiet buzzing.
The balanced OUT sounds okay, but nothing special.

I love the MOTU judging by its look and the unbalanced OUT, the headphone out and the rest are phenomenal. I'm not sure what to do now, maybe I should send it back?

 

[dasdoing]

some days ago I was reading a test of several older subs where the guy talks about many of the through signals not beeing clean: https://www.amazona.de/vergleichstest-subwoofer-presonus-temblor-t10-jbl-lsr310s-krk-10s/

in the last page he compares distorsion of the through signals https://www.amazona.de/vergleichstest-subwoofer-presonus-temblor-t10-jbl-lsr310s-krk-10s/6/
I actualy never heard of problems like this before, and I never had a sub (going to buy one). I am thinking of using my extra outs and putting software crossovers (my setup is conected to a PC)