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Active speaker OEMs

q3cpma

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#1
Does anyone know a way to learn about the OEMs for big guys like Genelec or Neumann? For example, I noticed that Genelec's 1238A and K&H's O500C seem to use the exact same woofer (see links) and I wondered who was the actual manufacturer behind these. I also want to know what class D amps Genelec uses in its monitors. Well, who doesn't want to know such thing?

http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/klei...hq.jpg/$File/kleinundhummel_o500c_fdna_hq.jpg
https://images.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...69ca8a2a3aa0e5b25fd05f64fe27c06/1238APM02.jpg


Guess this thread can be used for all questions of this type.
 

thewas_

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#3
It is said that for example the O500C has OEM custom made drivers from following companies:
Seas tweeter
ATC mid range dome (newer models like KH310/KH420 use their own non-ATC ones)
PHL woofer
but all above (except the newer mid range dome) are imho not officially confirmed.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #4
I see. I find it very sad that the OEMs aren't given, as I would personally be very attracted to designs using the usual driver top players like Seas or Scanspeak.
Guess they want us to believe they make everything.
 

thewas_

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#5
The OEMs aren't given as they are built to their own specs only for them.

Similar drivers (but not exactly the same) are for example for the O500C:
Seas TAF27Plus
ATC SM75-150S
PHL B30-4020

But the biggest "magic" of a great loudspeaker like that isn't the chassis, but the total design and engineering of the baffle, waveguides and crossover. The proof of that can be very often found in the "high end" audio where very expensive and "boutique" drivers are combined to a mediocre total result.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #6
Well, you're obviously right, but it's not strange to be happy when you know the manufacturer hasn't cut corners on the drivers; especially for the money these specific models cost. Same way I'm happy when I read that Hypex (Barefoot, Ex Machina) or ICEpower (Hedd) is used for internal amplification: you know you get what you pay for.
And that way of thinking has a another side to it: you could get stuff like those popular Bose headphones using shit drivers but EQing them into submission to get something decent on the FR front.
 

thewas_

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#7
Price in audio unfortunately rarely correlates with acoustic qualities, for example the great Kii Three and D&D 8c use the Seas DXT tweeter which costs even to end consumers like us less than 70€ per piece!
 

HammerSandwich

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#9
Even the top players design & sell some dud drivers, while others often have mediocre lineups with a hidden gem or two. IOW, full, Hificompass-level, measurements tell us about performance; OEM names don't hint at much beyond build quality. And I'd be willing to bet that higher-volume builders could get fancy branding at incredible prices, if they agreed to buy several containers of QC rejects...
 

Ron Texas

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#10
Price in audio unfortunately rarely correlates with acoustic qualities, for example the great Kii Three and D&D 8c use the Seas DXT tweeter which costs even to end consumers like us less than 70€ per piece!
From which one might conclude that paying a lot of money for a speaker with an exotic tweeter is a bad value.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #12
Well, I'm obviously not sure, that's why this thread exists, but they look incredibly similar to me (the carbon fiber dust cap, double roll looking surround and general cone texture). Well, if you ignore the different size, of course.
 

Ilkka Rissanen

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#13
Hi,

We make quite many drivers ourselves, for example all the drivers in The Ones series, but that 15 inch woofer in 1238A comes from PHL. It is made according to our spec so it is not identical to any other manufacturer's driver. Of course the appearance to the front can look identical.

We design and manufacture our own class D amplifiers.

I'd be happy to answer to your questions, of course some information is considered company confidential.
 

617

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#14
From which one might conclude that paying a lot of money for a speaker with an exotic tweeter is a bad value.
Yeah I'd tend to agree. Diminishing returns for dome tweeters kick in pretty hard above $70 USD, and far less for tweeters used in a 3 way.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #15
Hi,

We make quite many drivers ourselves, for example all the drivers in The Ones series, but that 15 inch woofer in 1238A comes from PHL. It is made according to our spec so it is not identical to any other manufacturer's driver. Of course the appearance to the front can look identical.

We design and manufacture our own class D amplifiers.

I'd be happy to answer to your questions, of course some information is considered company confidential.
Thanks for answering. Do you mind telling me if this is the case for the drivers of the 80x0 and 83x0 speakers and (just for curiosity) what material is used for the woofers?
About the amps, mind giving any specs? Not that I think it really matters for final sound quality unless completely botched; I'm the kind of guy who'd use a Behringer A800 if I had to use passives. It's just to know how advanced they are compared to big names like Hypex, STMicro or TI.
 
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dshreter

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#16
Hi,

We make quite many drivers ourselves, for example all the drivers in The Ones series, but that 15 inch woofer in 1238A comes from PHL. It is made according to our spec so it is not identical to any other manufacturer's driver. Of course the appearance to the front can look identical.

We design and manufacture our own class D amplifiers.

I'd be happy to answer to your questions, of course some information is considered company confidential.
It would be very interesting to know what qualities you are looking for in your class D amplifiers. I imagine you need packaging that specifically works for mechanical/physical integration in your designs. Are there electrical performance criteria you’re looking for that you think are unique or distinguishing vs stand-alone class D amps we are familiar with?

In terms of topology, for AES digital inputs is DSP applied, then DAC, then this feeds the amp? Or is it a so called “Digital Amp” without DAC?

Thank you for being here!
 

Ilkka Rissanen

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#17
Thanks for answering. Do you mind telling me if this is the case for the drivers of the 80x0 and 83x0 speakers and (just for curiosity) what material is used for the woofers?
Unfortunately I can't go into details about specific models but we use both OEM and in-house made drivers. I am assuming you mean the woofer cone/diaphragm material? Polypropylene and pressed paper are the most common. You can find all sorts of exotic materials in the world but often the reality is that you end up paying 10x and having only 5-10 % performance increase, if even that. Not a very good deal.

About the amps, mind giving any specs? Not that I think it really matters for final sound quality unless completely botched; I'm the kind of guy who'd use a Behringer A800 if I had to use passives. It's just to know how advanced they are compared to big names like Hypex, STMicro or TI.
Have you already checked our operating manuals for each model? There you can find all the available specs for our amplifiers. I can assure you they are as advanced as you can find available from any well known manufacturer you listed.
 

Ilkka Rissanen

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#18
It would be very interesting to know what qualities you are looking for in your class D amplifiers. I imagine you need packaging that specifically works for mechanical/physical integration in your designs. Are there electrical performance criteria you’re looking for that you think are unique or distinguishing vs stand-alone class D amps we are familiar with?
Mechanical fitting/integration is one of the most important things for us because our amps are fully integrated into the mechanics/enclosure of each monitor. 8xxx series models especially have very tight spaces where the amplifier has to fit. It simply would not possible to use anyone else's amplifier there.

When it comes to electronic performance criteria, we measure and evaluate all the commonly known variables such as THD, IMD, noise, power, protection levels etc. EMC tests are required by the authorities. Listening tests are performed for a full product once the design is mature enough. Reliability is very important for us because we want our products to withstand aging and harsh environments. Therefore a lot of effort is put into testing and verification that the product is able to cope with anything we can and can't think of.

In terms of topology, for AES digital inputs is DSP applied, then DAC, then this feeds the amp? Or is it a so called “Digital Amp” without DAC?

Thank you for being here!
Our amplifiers are analogue class D amplifiers so the block diagram would go as your first suggestion.
 

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