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ABX test Vinyl vs CD can you hear a difference?

Keened

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As someone who has also tried to move vinyl to digital I can say firmly without a doubt that vinyl is an awful medium for fidelity preservation. As @mike70 said it is a mechanical system and it's a remarkably finicky when you try to wring out the full capabilities of it. They were never made to work out to their technical limits regularly because the vast majority of people just wanted to listen to their music and would accept a simulacra of a performance if it was cheap and easy enough to use.

One of the main thing people don't understand in the analog/digital divide is that there is a difference between an electro-mechanical system that interfaces mechanically (and thus destructively) and naively presents the electrical interpretation for direct amplification to an opto-computational system that interfaces non-destructively, encodes data for structured interpretation, and can be modified before amplification.

(Grant me the freedom not to quibble about specialist equipment in the next part)

Every time you play a record you slightly destroy it.


The needle will wear against the record groove and the groove against the needle. The change will be small but it will eventually change the actual signal because the wear will not be perfectly even. This goes quadruple for an improperly balanced system, the needle will apply a mechanical bias in some direction that will in the worst case will lead to it eventually just throwing the needle out of the groove. The sound will decay before it gets to that point, but again the point of a record is for casual playing and it will accept a surprising amount of obvious content degradation before it fully fails. Magnetic physical media (e.g. analog tape and the mechanical aspect of hard drives) requires the same rough concepts of physical control and tolerances but at least it doesn't actively destroy both the content and capability to retrieve the content

The content is presented naively for real time signal transposition.

So assuming you are getting the intended content, now you have a physical range to interpret into electrical values. But there is no intentional computational pause in this process so if something goes momentarily wrong there is no way to attempt to correct for it. This is both a blessing and a curse, for sufficiently small problems the brain will generally be able to compensate without too much attention drawn to the error but since you're stuck with a single attempt it means as your data size grows your error rate grows proportionally. Again, for normal human consumption of music it doesn't matter, but if you're aiming for perfect replication or using pointlessly bloated data files you'd want to stay away from true real time transfer without a buffer.

And even if you had magical buffer that would physically re-check imperceptibly fast (awfully hard if you are limited to 33rpm) you would have no way of saying that the signal found is what was intended. The values aren't quantized and packaged with error correction, so you can't say that value X was supposed to be value Y because of another authoritative structure Z to reference. Also if you did already have an authoritative copy to check against, why don't you just play that?

Low headroom for signal modification

Again, a blessing and a curse. The physical nature of the record meant that you just physically couldn't record all possible signal transitions in the physical range (otherwise you would throw the needle off); so records had to be recorded in a certain manner and they choose what they subjectively felt was the best way in the limits they had and it could sound pretty damn good when done right. Digital media doesn't have the same kind of limitation for better or worse, so you can push the limits of taste further but it's a magnitude (scaler?) not a vector (e.g. Loudness Wars). Also digital media had to be converted back into analog at some point for consumption and historically DACs were kind of not great unless you spent a lot of money.

And all of this assumes the physical media hasn't been subject to damage (like storing them sideways in even a modest stack), isn't covered in dust, etc. They deform from true flat planes way too easily and it's a real pain to get them flat again. There isn't a physical standard, at least as far as I can tell, that will guarantee best playback on all records without doing research on the company that did that pressing and that particular run.

So yes, vinyl sucks as a medium and if it sound quality you are looking for then a properly digitized file will always beat it out. The problem is the inability to get those digitized files. There is no way to go to a record company and say "Here is proof that I own all of these records already, I will pay you $5 a record for digital copies of what I already own". You can try to digitize your own records but it's very very painful and incredibly slow because you have to do the metadata creation yourself and you can't share the workload among other enthusiasts because each one of you is only legally allowed to transfer your own personal record to a personal file. Simply owning the record does not give someone else the right to give you a digital copy even though it's theoretically the same content for all meaningful purposes.

In a sane world we would just create a dummy record system that would let people fiddle with lots of finely weighted knobs and then spin a 'record' and simulate the needle drop while playing back a bit perfect digital copy made from the original master using laser transcription. Then we'd lock the padded door and let them get on with their lives.
 
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mike70

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I understand your point and respect it, I agree to many aspects you presented and above all the good high level discussion. That's good and perfect for a meet with many people and beers to talk and enjoy our hobby.

I'll stop answering because for a forum thread this can round forever and it's not the "right medium" to do it.

Only let me say that even with the many "problems" you named, I have a very good sound quality and a closer experience to the music with records. With the proper care and "love" records have a lifetime sounding the same, based on real tests with digitalization.

But as I said in previous posts ... you need to do your homework, it requires work. Vinyl isn't for everyone and that's pretty clear for me.

As a technical medium digital is superior ... but the theorical oscilloscope is one thing and your analog speakers are other. As a real experience in speakers / room acoustics / real SNR / DR recordings ... vinyl sounds as good as digital with a right setup.

It's only my opinion. Best for everyone, enjoy music in the way you like it, that's the real thing at the end.
 
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Keened

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Oh no doubt there on my side.

The difference between system engineering and listening to music is another thing people like to conflate. It can be fun in its own way to 'perfect' a system but a lot of people start treating it as an end in its own right (which it can be!) rather than a means to the ends of enjoying music.

My real lament is that music I/we want to listen and enjoy is locked away behind a system that takes time and effort that we don't always have to spare. I want the analog mastering because it tends to sound better for any number of reasons (different aesthetic trends, better sound engineering, etc) but I don't want to have to have to handle the vinyl itself. I want to pay a reasonable price for someone else to perfectly transcribe it to digital so I can listen to it whenever, wherever, and however I want. It's absurd that it's locked away behind artificial IP restrictions decades later in a way analogous to hi-fi multi-channel audio.

I have a couple hundred records, I just want to give someone $5-10 for each one and get a perfect digital copy with track headings and digital copies of the visual art (pictures of the slipcover, the records themselves, and any inserts) :(
 

egellings

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It seems to me that the background noise inherent in vinyl records would give them away in a CD-vinyl comparison.
 

mike70

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It seems to me that the background noise inherent in vinyl records would give them away in a CD-vinyl comparison.

With headphones is more difficult, yes, but with speakers ... I have many records that you need to check you're listening to vinyl, you don't hear even an isolated pop. In general, I don't hear any background noise from my listening position, only some very low
click / pop from time to time.

Good cleaning (record / stylus / mat), good cartridge setup (geometry, vtf, vta, azimuth, antiskate) and tonearm compatibility, good basement, good preamp ...

Oh yes, vinyl can sound jaw dropping ... but is not plug & play, far from that.
 

egellings

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I agree. I have some very quiet vinyl records, and they do sound good. Most of what I have, though does have some unobjectionable background noise that gives them away in spite of careful handling & record care. As soon as the music starts to play, though, the noise is pretty well masked out.
 

mike70

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I agree. I have some very quiet vinyl records, and they do sound good. Most of what I have, though does have some unobjectionable background noise that gives them away in spite of careful handling & record care. As soon as the music starts to play, though, the noise is pretty well masked out.

A good cleaning method and decent inner sleeve replacement is a must to have (almost) noiseless records. But, they need that cleaning only the first time, after that, using a clean stylus and mat they wouldn't get noise again.
And the dirt affects the sound quality, if you hear a record with crackles and pops, believe me, that record in clean condition sounds much much better (and i don't talk about the noise itself ... the "real" sound quality is much improved).
 

Dismayed

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I believe the more interesting test is to see if listeners can differentiate the signal from an LP from a digitized version of the same signal. CDs should have no problem reproducing the more limited dynamic range of LPs, and the digital will contain the surface noise of the LP.
 

mike70

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I believe the more interesting test is to see if listeners can differentiate the signal from an LP from a digitized version of the same signal. CDs should have no problem reproducing the more limited dynamic range of LPs, and the digital will contain the surface noise of the LP.

... and after that ... is the capability to show the DR in your system.
Digital have bigger theoretical DR, but the recording, speakers, acoustics, etc ... needs to be good to show that difference.
Remember that actual recordings have a very low DR to sound good on personal devices, bad earphones, .. blah blah

If we talk about the theoretical world we say many right things, but sometimes far away from the real thing.
 
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Dismayed

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... and after that ... is the capability to show the DR in your system.
Digital have bigger theoretical DR, but the recording, speakers, acoustics, etc ... needs to be good to show that difference.
Remember that actual recordings have a very low DR to sound good on personal devices, bad earphones, .. blah blah

If we talk about the theoretical world we say many right things, but far away from the real thing.
The point would be to replicate the sound of the LP as closely as possible in a digital signal, and then to see if listeners can tell the difference. It's a test for analog pixie dust.
 

mike70

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The point would be to replicate the sound of the LP as closely as possible in a digital signal, and then to see if listeners can tell the difference. It's a test for analog pixie dust.

yes, it's ok, i've done that test and i don't find any difference at all (as i expected)
 
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