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A proposal for a Subjective Rating System

Blumlein 88

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Maybe we now have the means to create a subjective scaling based upon objectively tested knowledge such as that from Harman and other sources. We know bass is over-represented in how people rate sound, being worth nearly 30% of the difference in quality perceived by listeners. We know it is mainly frequency response people relate to, and that resonances or regions of response that are highlighted are more negative in rating than areas of omission. So speakers mainly depart from perfection by adding resonance or response excess or by failing to reproduce regions.

So the old bass, vocals/midrange, upper mids, and treble are generally sufficient. For each region it can be proper, excessive, deficient. With some additional rating in how well fit together those regions are. I think your idea about transparency and coloration are one step of abstraction away from describing balance of FR using transparency and coloration.

If my memory isn't faulty, it was the subjective press in the form of early Stereophile and later TAS who made coloration and transparency part of the normal lexicon of audiophile language. It was intended to be beyond simple FR balance and more holistically capture ones general feeling of being closer to or further from the real recorded performances in transparency terms. Coloration being the flip side of how many veils were between you and the real raw recorded performance.

One could imagine a redefinition of those terms in something else. Perhaps new terms would be easier to implement. But I'm reminded of this cartoon.

1566275074417.png
 

watchnerd

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Ok, yeah, but while the "wife" comment gets an eye-roll, the music one actually bugs me more. The reviewer/audiophile seems to use it with a bit of profundity, which make the emptiness of the phrase all the more grating. IMO.

I read Herb Reichert's review of the speakers I have, and in it he chose to use some incredibly archaic bluegrass recordings from like the 1920s. Musical content value aside, the recording is limited by the tech of the time:


Of this Herb said:

"When I clicked Play on Bill Monroe's "White House Blues," performed by Earl Taylor and the Stoney Mountain Boys, from the compilation Classic Bluegrass (CD, Smithsonian Folkways SFD 40092), I was blasted into submission. The Boys were killin' it.

The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook. Forget those "accurately layered soundstage" allusions —the only thing I, as a serious audio reviewer, feel I must do is be able to recognize divinely inspired picking, satanic bowing, and angelic singing when they appear between the speakers. When my system locks in and makes music truly happen (like it did here), I have no time for note taking, measuring, or analyzing soundstage depth. I pray daily to the audiophile gods: "Please, never let my hi-fi get too snooty for Snuffy Jenkins or Hazel Dickens!"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker-page-2#vZWwZWopZecvkE1z.99

Wait, what???

So a recording that doesn't even have a soundstage is praised for its lack thereof.....and the system is described as "makes music truly happen"....

What does that even mean?
 

Blumlein 88

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I read Herb Reichert's review of the speakers I have, and in it he chose to use some incredibly archaic bluegrass recordings from like the 1920s. Musical content value aside, the recording is limited by the tech of the time:


Of this Herb said:

"When I clicked Play on Bill Monroe's "White House Blues," performed by Earl Taylor and the Stoney Mountain Boys, from the compilation Classic Bluegrass (CD, Smithsonian Folkways SFD 40092), I was blasted into submission. The Boys were killin' it.

The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook. Forget those "accurately layered soundstage" allusions —the only thing I, as a serious audio reviewer, feel I must do is be able to recognize divinely inspired picking, satanic bowing, and angelic singing when they appear between the speakers. When my system locks in and makes music truly happen (like it did here), I have no time for note taking, measuring, or analyzing soundstage depth. I pray daily to the audiophile gods: "Please, never let my hi-fi get too snooty for Snuffy Jenkins or Hazel Dickens!"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker-page-2#vZWwZWopZecvkE1z.99

Wait, what???

So a recording that doesn't even have a soundstage is praised for its lack thereof.....and the system is described as "makes music truly happen"....

What does that even mean?
I don't know what you are complaining about. There is genuine musical response to 7 khz there. And almost down to 100 hz.

Now were I to quibble it wouldn't be over the inspired picking or the satanic bowing, it would be in regards to the angelic singing. That sound doesn't bring angels to mind. Then again, maybe my speakers are faulty. :)

The good thing is, since you have the speakers, you'll know you are hearing what Herb heard when he listened to this bluegrass song.

Of more serious note, having recorded mando, guitar and fiddle, there is a world of fine detail, nuance, and most of all realistic texture missing in this old recording. I miss the texture the most in the fiddle. In fact I'm not sure I hear anything other than guitar and banjo. So much so, that I would describe it as MIDI-like in its blunt sparseness. The true genius I suppose is I too am drawn into this recording and enjoy the fine performance. Even with all the lack of fidelity. One wonders what it would sound like had all that fidelity been there.
 

Juhazi

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Actually listening to mono recordings with stereo system reveals the quality of coherency and imaging - does the phantom mono realize?

I hardly ever read the listening experiences in reviews, for the reasons stated above!
 
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digicidal

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Now were I to quibble it wouldn't be over the inspired picking or the satanic bowing, it would be in regards to the angelic singing. That sound doesn't bring angels to mind. Then again, maybe my speakers are faulty. :)

Not only does it not bring angels to my mind either... after just a minute of listening I was tempted to grab my gun and go see what the real thing sounded like! Then I realized I could just click "STOP" on the player. Whew... obviously yours are not the only speakers that are faulty. o_O
 

watchnerd

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The good thing is, since you have the speakers, you'll know you are hearing what Herb heard when he listened to this bluegrass song.

The speakers are a start, but I'm missing a tube amp and, most importantly, insight into exactly what Herb was smoking that night (herb?) to hear what he heard.

I'm sure the right substance will make angelic singing manifest.
 

MattHooper

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Maybe we now have the means to create a subjective scaling based upon objectively tested knowledge such as that from Harman and other sources.

It's a very good question, whether we can come up with some more accurate/reliable/rigorous/useful subective descriptions of sound vs the ones audiophiles and high end audio writers have been using.

It seems initially promising in a sort of objective/subjective strategy whereby we could just describe how a speaker "sounds" by describing, say, it's frequency response: 6 db hump at 50 Hz, essentially flat to 2 K were there is a 4 db dip, another rise at X, Y, Z..."

The problem is that this requires a good technical knowledge and experience with having correlated various frequency profiles with how things sound. It's a level of technical knowledge that most won't have. Add to that all the different ways speakers differ in frequency response, dispersion, resonances etc, and things become even more complex. It's like how an experienced composer of classical music can look at a score, see all the parts merely written out as symbols on paper, and translate that in to how it will sound when played by an orchestra. This isn't a skill or knowledge set that seems reasonable to demand of everyone. So short cut descriptions of "how it sounds" still seems like a fairly necessary route in terms of a wider audience understanding the sonic characteristics in question, allowing non-tech-geeks to describe sound, etc.

And I think much of the vocabulary that has arisen in the audiophile world to describe sound is pretty valid and can be useful. If someone is using words like "transparency, detail, soundstaging, imaging, airy highs, tight bass, speakers "disappearing," 'glow' in the upper mids...all that kind of stuff, I pretty much know what they mean. They may be wrong in their description, I may disagree with their perception, but I at least know what they think they are hearing, what they are trying to describe. And some people can be better at accurately transcribing what they hear in to descriptions than others. I've found some reviewers to be quite good in that respect. As an example, I encountered a speaker brand for the first time a few years ago that blew my socks off. What I heard was in absolute terms a very subtle set of characteristics that seemed to distinguish the sound, but which were subjectively very compelling to me. After auditioning the brand myself and becoming enthusiastic about it, I started to look at reviews of the same speakers. And I'll be damned if pretty much every reviewer didn't nail the sonic characteristics of that speaker in their description (especially Michael Fremer and even an Absolute Sound reviewer). The descriptions were just what I heard, picking out exactly the nuances that excited me when I had heard the speakers.

When I was reviewing I tried as best I could to transcribe "what the speaker sounded like" to words, and I very often had responses along the lines of "Wow, I too have auditioned that speaker before and didn't end up liking it as much as you; nevertheless you described exactly the sound I heard!" I've seen lots of similar success in agreeing on sonic descriptions between audiophiles.

And that is one reason why I still highly value the subjective end of this hobby. The end game for all the engineering is the subjective experience of listening to the system, usually music of course. All the talk about distortion or lack of distortion is of little relevance unless it "sounds like something" or not. It's the "sounds like" end result that I'm concerned with. When I hear a fabulous hi fi system, it sounds like something, and in my enthusiasm I want to talk about "how it sounds" with other people who care about these things. Hence, a need for the vocabulary. Especially for folks like me who can not look at all the technical measurements of a system and completely predict exactly how it will sound to me. I've got a pretty good idea of the sonic consequences of some measurements, but I've never been able to predict, nor have someone technical predict for me, exactly how I will perceive that speaker's sound in total.

And the thing is even describing the frequency response/dispersion/room interaction of a speaker doesn't in of itself go all the way. It's not good enough to say "4 db peak and rising starting at 2K." What will that mean? Well, we have to translate that to something useful: It will sound "brighter." Well, what are the sonic consequences of "brighter?" Then we can talk about how, for instance, vocal sibilance may sound harder or peak out unnaturally from voices, how maybe trumpets in their high register or drum cymbals will sound unnaturally piercing to the ears, etc. Or we can talk about the sonic consequences of midrange dips on how voices will tend to sound, or bass peaks on how bass instruments will tend to sound, etc. There are subjective sonic consequences that will arise, making sense that we would want to be able to describe them.

And then it goes further: sonic consequences can have musical consequences. Burnish away the essential part of the higher frequencies, and you'll take away some of the life in what some musicians are playing where those frequencies are important. Or differences in the bass region can have musical effects. I had a speaker to audition at my place once that produced a significantly different bass profile than my existing speaker (which was leaner, and did not excite room modes the same way). What blew my mind is how this changed the sensation of the music.
The bass parts literally sounded "slowed down" and played lackidasiacally on the new speaker. Switch back to the old speaker, much more taut and propulsive sounding in the bass, and it's like the musician "woke up" and is playing with more ferver and faster. It was bizarre!

A good audio reviewer, for me, can serve the purpose of doing an end run to what ultimately is important to me "how it sounds." He/she may miss describing, or emphasizing certain technical "defects" that a technically knowledgeable person would point to in measurements. But they can still do a good enough job of capturing the essential characteristics of a speaker, how it "sounds" to be of use to me. I've been led by the subjective description of certain speakers - "the characteristics the reviewer is describing are those that I value...I'll seek that speaker out.." - to numerous successful encounters with the same speakers. They had the attributes the reviewer described. I've had less success either trying to divine from graphs what I'll like - including even going on the Harman Kardon/Toole et all school of speaker measurements - or taking the advice of super objective engineer types who think there is a very narrow range of best practices in which to build speakers, and "just get this one, it measures great!" type of advice.

But..that's me. Clearly others can look at measurements, buy on those metrics, and be happy with what they get. Which is great! But, even so, I think a bunch of what I wrote above is still relevant if we cant to actually talk about sound, rather than talk about measurements right up until a system is complete, then sit on our hands, shut up, and have all our own subjective experiences in isolation.
 
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BostonJack

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I propose a system similar to, say, rating advanced skiing objectives. (difficulty of the approach or climb, rating of the degree of difficulty of the ski downhill, and exposure, likely consequences of an unprotected fall).

$ to $$$$$$ . as difficulty of acquiring a given component
1.0 . to 5.12 . degree of excellence of the audio experience
E1 to E5 . degree of exposure to ridicule by fellow 'audiophiles' and/or one's SO

so, a JDS Labs Atom would rate : $$/5.10/E2 . an inexpensive, quite excellent performing, high acceptability component (though having a quite low 'bling' factor.
 

watchnerd

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Is Totaldac still in business?

I wonder whether the Totaldac disaster and the strange social media posts of Michael Lavorgna in response to it (now all deleted) caused his "retirement from HiFi."

Or perhaps he has merely retired from shilling for Totaldac and quietly joined ASR.



"It’s as if a little spirit had been sent to sprinkle magical musical dust on every bit before it hit my ears, adding more dimension, weight, color, and flesh. Music hovered and quivered with shimmering source-defying presence."



OMG I WANT TO MEET HIS DRUG DEALER




Taken from:

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-totaldac-d1-streamer/
 

Blumlein 88

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It's a very good question, whether we can come up with some more accurate/reliable/rigorous/useful subective descriptions of sound vs the ones audiophiles and high end audio writers have been using.

It seems initially promising in a sort of objective/subjective strategy whereby we could just describe how a speaker "sounds" by describing, say, it's frequency response: 6 db hump at 50 Hz, essentially flat to 2 K were there is a 4 db dip, another rise at X, Y, Z..."

The problem is that this requires a good technical knowledge and experience with having correlated various frequency profiles with how things sound. It's a level of technical knowledge that most won't have. Add to that all the different ways speakers differ in frequency response, dispersion, resonances etc, and things become even more complex. It's like how an experienced composer of classical music can look at a score, see all the parts merely written out as symbols on paper, and translate that in to how it will sound when played by an orchestra. This isn't a skill or knowledge set that seems reasonable to demand of everyone. So short cut descriptions of "how it sounds" still seems like a fairly necessary route in terms of a wider audience understanding the sonic characteristics in question, allowing non-tech-geeks to describe sound, etc.

And I think much of the vocabulary that has arisen in the audiophile world to describe sound is pretty valid and can be useful. If someone is using words like "transparency, detail, soundstaging, imaging, airy highs, tight bass, speakers "disappearing," 'glow' in the upper mids...all that kind of stuff, I pretty much know what they mean. They may be wrong in their description, I may disagree with their perception, but I at least know what they think they are hearing, what they are trying to describe. And some people can be better at accurately transcribing what they hear in to descriptions than others. I've found some reviewers to be quite good in that respect. As an example, I encountered a speaker brand for the first time a few years ago that blew my socks off. What I heard was in absolute terms a very subtle set of characteristics that seemed to distinguish the sound, but which were subjectively very compelling to me. After auditioning the brand myself and becoming enthusiastic about it, I started to look at reviews of the same speakers. And I'll be damned if pretty much every reviewer didn't nail the sonic characteristics of that speaker in their description (especially Michael Fremer and even an Absolute Sound reviewer). The descriptions were just what I heard, picking out exactly the nuances that excited me when I had heard the speakers.

When I was reviewing I tried as best I could to transcribe "what the speaker sounded like" to words, and I very often had responses along the lines of "Wow, I too have auditioned that speaker before and didn't end up liking it as much as you; nevertheless you described exactly the sound I heard!" I've seen lots of similar success in agreeing on sonic descriptions between audiophiles.

And that is one reason why I still highly value the subjective end of this hobby. The end game for all the engineering is the subjective experience of listening to the system, usually music of course. All the talk about distortion or lack of distortion is of little relevance unless it "sounds like something" or not. It's the "sounds like" end result that I'm concerned with. When I hear a fabulous hi fi system, it sounds like something, and in my enthusiasm I want to talk about "how it sounds" with other people who care about these things. Hence, a need for the vocabulary. Especially for folks like me who can not look at all the technical measurements of a system and completely predict exactly how it will sound to me. I've got a pretty good idea of the sonic consequences of some measurements, but I've never been able to predict, nor have someone technical predict for me, exactly how I will perceive that speaker's sound in total.

And the thing is even describing the frequency response/dispersion/room interaction of a speaker doesn't in of itself go all the way. It's not good enough to say "4 db peak and rising starting at 2K." What will that mean? Well, we have to translate that to something useful: It will sound "brighter." Well, what are the sonic consequences of "brighter?" Then we can talk about how, for instance, vocal sibilance may sound harder or peak out unnaturally from voices, how maybe trumpets in their high register or drum cymbals will sound unnaturally piercing to the ears, etc. Or we can talk about the sonic consequences of midrange dips on how voices will tend to sound, or bass peaks on how bass instruments will tend to sound, etc. There are subjective sonic consequences that will arise, making sense that we would want to be able to describe them.

And then it goes further: sonic consequences can have musical consequences. Burnish away the essential part of the higher frequencies, and you'll take away some of the life in what some musicians are playing where those frequencies are important. Or differences in the bass region can have musical effects. I had a speaker to audition at my place once that produced a significantly different bass profile than my existing speaker (which was leaner, and did not excite room modes the same way). What blew my mind is how this changed the sensation of the music.
The bass parts literally sounded "slowed down" and played lackidasiacally on the new speaker. Switch back to the old speaker, much more taut and propulsive sounding in the bass, and it's like the musician "woke up" and is playing with more ferver and faster. It was bizarre!

A good audio reviewer, for me, can serve the purpose of doing an end run to what ultimately is important to me "how it sounds." He/she may miss describing, or emphasizing certain technical "defects" that a technically knowledgeable person would point to in measurements. But they can still do a good enough job of capturing the essential characteristics of a speaker, how it "sounds" to be of use to me. I've been led by the subjective description of certain speakers - "the characteristics the reviewer is describing are those that I value...I'll seek that speaker out.." - to numerous successful encounters with the same speakers. They had the attributes the reviewer described. I've had less success either trying to divine from graphs what I'll like - including even going on the Harman Kardon/Toole et all school of speaker measurements - or taking the advice of super objective engineer types who think there is a very narrow range of best practices in which to build speakers, and "just get this one, it measures great!" type of advice.

But..that's me. Clearly others can look at measurements, buy on those metrics, and be happy with what they get. Which is great! But, even so, I think a bunch of what I wrote above is still relevant if we cant to actually talk about sound, rather than talk about measurements right up until a system is complete, then sit on our hands, shut up, and have all our own subjective experiences in isolation.

And if you heard the description of plankton what comes to mind? Yes, this is a test of your touchy, feely, everyone can know what you mean idea about audio vocabulary. And while you are at it, describe in other terms what is meant by constipated syncopation.
 

pozz

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It was just a joke, however lame. I thought that was obvious, especially posting it here at ASR. I guess I wasn't thinking about how many people have been joining lately and arguing in hundreds of posts in a short time in what is most likely pure trolling to keep some of our very capable members busy making well-reasoned replies to the newcomers' disingenuous nonsense. lol

I suppose you could say I was trying to troll the trolls, making a joke out of extremes of subjectivism, that go so far in the pretense of some form of universality or utility in their subjective impressions as though there can be such a thing as objective or scientific extreme audio subjectivism. You know, like saying that a new USB cable provides an improvement in fidelity of 32.65% over the generic cable. Precision language or claims to several decimal places for something that is completely subjective, if not purely imagined. Anywho. They should just embrace that it's mostly opinion and feelings, and not attempt to cloak it in science or engineering or even psychoacoustics. But then they wouldn't be able to talk down to anyone who asks for a measurement or test result or materials list or some tiny bit of evidence in support of a claim.
I still want to read a paper full of holts/atkinsons/harleys and fancy graphs. :D
 

watchnerd

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All of his writings seemed redolent of hallucinogen use.

If he wants to join this fine forum and make valuable contributions, I would welcome him and support him during the recovery process.

Pretty sure the ROI on hallucinogens is better than the ROI on TotalDAC.

I'd love to have someone do an audio review where, instead of changing equipment around, the equipment stayed the same, but the recreational beverages and substances changed.
 

watchnerd

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And if you heard the description of plankton what comes to mind? Yes, this is a test of your touchy, feely, everyone can know what you mean idea about audio vocabulary. And while you are at it, describe in other terms what is meant by constipated syncopation.

Isn't plankton just low-level detail?
 
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Hugo9000

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I wouldn't describe any aspect of music I listen to in such trivial terms as plankton. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I owned any whale song CDs. It might be appropriate or desired there, I suppose.

And wtf? Constipated syncopation?!? Please don't tell me. I suspect this is one of those cases where ignorance is bliss.


Edited to add emphasis! :eek:o_O:rolleyes::facepalm:
 
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digicidal

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I'd love to have someone do an audio review where, instead of changing equipment around, the equipment stayed the same, but the recreational beverages and substances changed.
Congratulations, your domain is available! Alteredstatesaudiophile.com
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MattHooper

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And if you heard the description of plankton what comes to mind? Yes, this is a test of your touchy, feely, everyone can know what you mean idea about audio vocabulary. And while you are at it, describe in other terms what is meant by constipated syncopation.

Sorry I'm a bit confused. I must have missed the plankton reference.

In any case, I hope you didn't take me to be saying there wasn't plenty of useless b.s. in subjective reviewing.
 

Get a hearing test

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People have preferences and someone who has listened to 5 headphones total doesnt hold a candle to someone who listened to over 100. But then the guy who listened to 100 might not even care anymore.
 
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