A preference rating for Projectors ?

[amarsicola]

I am thinking of buying a projector and screen so I started a trip on the internet to find out "objectivist" sites that provide measurements.
So far, I found quite a lot of sites giving measurements that are funded by the industry (ProjectorCentral, SoundAndVision, ProjectorReviews) and one independent (MondoProjos, very nice indeed, and also the only one with a comprehensive database of measurements here https://www.mondoprojos.fr/2023/04/...ecteurs-classement-de-32-modeles-home-cinema/ ).
In all this sites, the most common measurements taken are:

• Brightness
• Contrast
• Coverage % of a color space, e.g. Rec. 709 HD
• Error in color representation, a.k.a. "deltaE"
• Input lag (for gaming use case only)
• Noise
• Consumption

Some factors are not even measured but are said disturbing for many users, such as the "rainbow effect" for DLP projectors.
Some other factors are considered positive features of a projector but without a clear explanation of why, such as higher resolution, frame interpolation, mechanical iris etc.
In all this measurements, I couldn't understand the role of the screen (e.g. deciding between white or grey is said to improve perception of contrast)

Other elements I understand are positive or negative depending on practical constraints of your specific room so should be considered as installation scenarios/facilities rather than performances, such as the projector throw ratio, zoom, horizontal/vertical lens shift and keystone

Now my question: is there any sort of "Preference rating" for projectors by which i could understand the quality of a projector in a synthetic index that factors in all the most important measurements? Or in simpler terms, what is most important among projector measurements and why?
Any advice or reading suggestion from the audio-objectivists? A tentatively video-objectivist is seeking help.

I would like to post this question also in the MondoProjos forum (in french) but it says "l’inscription n’est actuellement pas autorisée"

 

[Blumlein 88]

DLP and rainbow issues. You'll just have to watch one a bit. They were moderately bothersome the first few hours I watched. A friend had one I was watching. After a few hours I learned not to see them somehow. I still catch them now and again in certain troublesome scenes, but not even 1% of the time. Many report learning not to see it, but some always do.

DLP has the rep for being less good in contrast especially in regard to low light levels or dark scenes. LCD based models are better in this regard. If you get a DLP, I'd say avoid those which have a white section in the color wheel. They do this to boost brightness and get better measured dynamic range, but it hurts saturation of colors. As to whether you would prefer DLP or LCD, again you'll need to view one a bit and decide. In both you get more colors to align in expensive models, but still pretty expensive.

Then there are lasers. Should be better than the other two all the way around. Prices are coming down.

You'll not get the exceptionally high contrast with any unless you can have a near dark room. Ambient light hurts the lowest levels. Those screens that reject ambient light help quite a bit just study how to use them carefully if you get one.

So my friend has a room without windows and ended up with an LCD. I have a living room I can make pretty dark, but not total theater dark. So I first had a regular bulb DLP, and now have an LED based DLP. It has good color saturation, good color accuracy pretty good contrast, and actually is a gaming projector in 4k.

I'd say get a laser or LED based one as that is just better than the older bulbs. In the long run cheaper as you don't have to replace bulbs every 2500 to 3500 hrs. LED and laser should be good for 20,000 hrs or more.

Color rendition and such has improved greatly in recent years. While there are still meaningful differences they are not nearly so wildly different as in the past. At least if you get a couple steps above entry level or business projectors.

So do you have a room dedicated to the projector or intend it to be dual use in a living or family room? Do you want to game with it?

One thing to watch for in tests in a review is the brightness levels in color as sometimes that is considerably lower than the raw number in I assume full white. The color number will correlate with how it looks to you much better. The other factors about dynamic contrast or such require a deep dive and devil is in the details. One maker will use a method that works great while another implements the same method and it has issues. I would say current mid-level and better projectors are further along being uniformly satisfying than is the case for speakers.

 

[Triliza]

I have a DLP Benq HT2050A projector (got it for less than 600 euros) I use only for movies and none of us sees the rainbow effects, so I suppose it depends on the person. But there is no reason to get DLP, a laser one at 4k is a better choice. I haven't been reading about projectors for a couple of years now, but beside what Blumlein 88 said, I remember that there is some differences between different brands about the chip they use to do the up-sampling to 4k when needed, supposedly some do it better than others.

If you have the liberty to do so, I'd first experiment using the wall directly as a screen, you can paint with different shades of white-gray, to get a feeling of what you like or need to do. If your wall is super flat you may not need a screen at all.

What kind of budget do you have available?

 

[amarsicola]

Hi Blumlein and Triliza, thank you for your advice. My use case is an evening movie with my wife, when I switch off the lights and my living room turns into an home cinema thanks to a manual screen hanging from the ceiling.
I will not use the projector during the day, but I guess some light will spill from the window or from the corridor even at night so I will never have a fully dark scenario, some brightness is welcome. A normal TV will do the heavy duty during the day, so lamp projectors are perfectly fine.
The source will be 100% streaming from an Apple TV or similar, with audio sent to my stereo system (Topping D70S + Audiophonics Purifi amp + Revel 208) and no intention to get crazy with more than two channels. 4k is nice but not a must.
My budget is 1-1,5 k€ and I was looking at Epson HC3800 (TW7100 in Europe) or Optoma UHD55 or BenQ 3550 (w2700 in Europe), all of them recommended by MondoProjos, and all of them should ensure more or less a 220-250cm wide screen from a 300-350cm throw distance that I can accomodate in the room, with ceiling mount.
My question is: which is best among them from and objective standpoint, knowing their measurements?
If we were talking about loudspeakers the straightforward answer would be "have a look at the Olive's preference score" that led me to my Revels. Anything similar for projection?

 

[Sancus]

There are projector review sites, but because HT projection is a super niche topic(even more niche than speakers!!) the review quality is not great, in my experience.

Also, it's absurdly expensive(10s of thousands) to get something that can even kinda approach the performance of a $2000 TV, so, that is a problem for many people who would otherwise be interested in them.

 

[amarsicola]

... Also, it's absurdly expensive(10s of thousands) to get something that can even kinda approach the performance of a $2000 TV...

I almost fully agree, the point is... size matters! If you want 100 inches or more, projector is the only way to go to have an "immersive" experience with reasonable budget. Also consider the comfort of a retractable screen that disappears in the ceiling in few seconds compared to an elephantiac tv.

 

[ElectricKoolAid]

I'm no expert but all of the experts I've heard from pretty much all have said that contrast is one of, if not the most important thing to look for in a projector, if you care about image quality. Having personally seen a few lower contrast projectors, compared to my JVC RS440, I would tend to agree with that. Resolution isn't super important IMO when you get to HD and above, even on a huge screen (obviously depending on the distance from the screen relative to it's size). Brightness is important but if the lights are off then most projectors are fine in that area. I also value color accuracy, as I don't want my image to be over saturated and look unnatural. With these in mind, that's why I settled on a JVC. Generally they are agreed upon as the best in these areas, for the price. I bought a used model from 2017 for a decent price second hand, so you can find good value for much less than the cost of new.

 

[amarsicola]

Thanks EKA, I also have read somewhere that contrast has the biggest weight on preference. Calling in our professor @amirm in case he knows any scientific paper on the topic

 

[robwpdx]

I usually look at the gamut which is the RGB triangle. Projectors have red, green, and blue lasers, sometimes a white bulb filtered into red, green, and blue.

There are projection screens with their own red, green, and blue filters which selectively reflect those specific red, green, and blue from the projector and don't reflect the rest of the "white" colors of sunlight or room illumination.

 

[stevenswall]

Those color spectrum graphs are useful, and I think just avoid rainbow stuff. Curious how to tell the deepest black something can do without resorting to an iris that seems to lag noticeably and fake dynamic range.

They need a black point spec, then brightness and color accuracy and I'd be golden.

HDTV Test on Youtube does some very in depth and objective reviews, though I think its primarily TVs.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I usually look at the gamut which is the RGB triangle. Projectors have red, green, and blue lasers, sometimes a white bulb filtered into red, green, and blue.

There are projection screens with their own red, green, and blue filters which selectively reflect those specific red, green, and blue from the projector and don't reflect the rest of the "white" colors of sunlight or room illumination.

I think this description on the screens is in error, respectfully. The screens are made in a way they reject light from most angle and only reflect light in a narrow angle. It doesn't matter about the color, just the angle. ALR or ambient light rejecting screens is what I have in mind. Maybe there is another type I've not heard about.

My first personal projector was a BenQ HT3050 which I was happy with. I'd been watching those of people I know for 20 years. Didn't have room for one until moving a few years back. They make an HT3550 which is very similar in design only in 4K with some other improvements. About $1200 in the US. I currently have a BenQ X3000i which is a 4k 4 LED gaming projector. I'm not a gamer, but it seemed better bang for buck in picture quality at the time a year ago. Runs about $2k. It is much brighter than the other I had and even better color which the HT3050 was very good itself. These models are on the short throw end of things meaning you need them closer rather than further away, though nothing like those Ultra Short Throw (UST) models which sit a few inches from the screen that are out now. Main issue with those currently is you have to use an expensive screen with those. One made for that purpose. Someone mentioned trying them on light colored walls and that does work just fine. Or even a light color sheet just to test one out.

I've seen recent Epson and Optima models which are good also. Having lens shift is a big plus in setting one up.

I think if you are going with a screen over 100" you really should go ahead with a 4K model.

 

[robwpdx]

Maybe there is another type I've not heard about.

I used to follow this space, but I cannot remember the manufacturer. It was a rigid screen and expensive, maybe $700? The technology may have died out.

EP1798968A2 - Projection system with selective reflective screen - Google Patents

Selective reflective optical apparatus includes a projection screen. The projection screen has a structure constructed and arranged to selectively reflect only incident optical energy of a predetermined number of narrow bands of optical wavelength regions.

patents.google.com

The Dolby theatrical 3d system is somewhat similar, it puts the color filters in the viewer glasses. It is considered the best 3d theatrical projection system, but it was not widely deployed. In Dolby 3d, there are 6 lasers 2 each RGB with slightly different wavelengths. One set of RGB wavelengths go to one eye and the other RGB go to the other eye with the filters on each eye in the glasses. It only works with laser projector light sources.

You are right that most of the screens use a lenticular system to reject ceiling or ambient angle light.

 

[Andysu]

DLP and rainbow issues. You'll just have to watch one a bit. They were moderately bothersome the first few hours I watched. A friend had one I was watching. After a few hours I learned not to see them somehow. I still catch them now and again in certain troublesome scenes, but not even 1% of the time. Many report learning not to see it, but some always do.

DLP has the rep for being less good in contrast especially in regard to low light levels or dark scenes. LCD based models are better in this regard. If you get a DLP, I'd say avoid those which have a white section in the color wheel. They do this to boost brightness and get better measured dynamic range, but it hurts saturation of colors. As to whether you would prefer DLP or LCD, again you'll need to view one a bit and decide. In both you get more colors to align in expensive models, but still pretty expensive.

Then there are lasers. Should be better than the other two all the way around. Prices are coming down.

You'll not get the exceptionally high contrast with any unless you can have a near dark room. Ambient light hurts the lowest levels. Those screens that reject ambient light help quite a bit just study how to use them carefully if you get one.

So my friend has a room without windows and ended up with an LCD. I have a living room I can make pretty dark, but not total theater dark. So I first had a regular bulb DLP, and now have an LED based DLP. It has good color saturation, good color accuracy pretty good contrast, and actually is a gaming projector in 4k.

I'd say get a laser or LED based one as that is just better than the older bulbs. In the long run cheaper as you don't have to replace bulbs every 2500 to 3500 hrs. LED and laser should be good for 20,000 hrs or more.

Color rendition and such has improved greatly in recent years. While there are still meaningful differences they are not nearly so wildly different as in the past. At least if you get a couple steps above entry level or business projectors.

So do you have a room dedicated to the projector or intend it to be dual use in a living or family room? Do you want to game with it?

One thing to watch for in tests in a review is the brightness levels in color as sometimes that is considerably lower than the raw number in I assume full white. The color number will correlate with how it looks to you much better. The other factors about dynamic contrast or such require a deep dive and devil is in the details. One maker will use a method that works great while another implements the same method and it has issues. I would say current mid-level and better projectors are further along being uniformly satisfying than is the case for speakers.

i rarely use the 4k laser projector . laser lamp time i think is under 300hrs for 3 no years had it now

 

[Andysu]

cinema is like home cinema why bother even going there to pay to watch the same as what is in the home now , see the roll bars on this screen , this is there top screen number 10 ? how can number 1 screen be number 10 ? i think odeon can't count as usually number 1 screen would be number 1 , its there insense screen that makes no sense at all , earplugs must be worn its dB unsafe for hearing , which why i walked out the bass is rubbish

if common camera phone frame rate not set then camera sees common roll bars and other video noise so those cinema digital projectors are not by any means perfect
even if 35/70 and camera frame rate needs be set correct otherwise it will see light flicker , what of real world light what does camera phone see

odeon bh2 bournemouuth , walked out of this had enough of digital cinema and pre shows are rubbish , the style showmanship at cinemas now are long gone by at least over 20 no years

 

[Blumlein 88]

i rarely use the 4k laser projector . laser lamp time i think is under 300hrs for 3 no years had it now

And this is supposed to mean what exactly?

 

[Andysu]

And this is supposed to mean what exactly?

well that's the dlp 4k laser question now

i think its a simple adjustment , i still not modify the projector