MRC01
Major Contributor
The apocryphal quote is that "There are only 2 kinds of music, and I like/play the good kind". Attributed to Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong and several other musicians.
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A millennial's rant on classical music
- Thread starter Fluffy
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Mis-quoted, it's "I like/play both types of music, Country and Western.
MRC01
Major Contributor
As I recall, that version of the quote was a derivative joke from a scene in the Blues Brothers.Mis-quoted, it's "I like/play both types of music, Country and Western.
MRC01
Major Contributor
Perhaps. It's already considered "classic rock", and for good reason. Some of the music from Pink Floyd, Yes and a few other bands uses methods and forms derived from classical music, with timeless themes/topics that run deeper than one's car or girlfriend. I believe that's a contributing factor why people still listen to it and get something fresh out of it half a century or more later.
IMO, So much of what's considered "progressive rock" over the last few decades of the 1900s
will be around for a long time. Really great compositions are just that, no matter what century they were written in.
Time will tell but I won't be around to see them . LOL
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Give you props for a very thoughtful and well intended post. A couple quick thoughts. It’s also not a genre I gravitate toward, but I’ll defend a few things in classical music you bring up. Cost Of admission… how much are a pair of Taylor Swift tickets these days? I bet more than a symphony in NYC. And a feeling of elitism… I know a lot of Dead Heads that’ll say you don’t “know” unless you heard them in ‘79 at the Burlington blah blah blah. I think classical music lovers are like anyone else who love to talk about music with others who appreciate the genre. Just like I enjoy talking about the best Yes album side with prog rock fans. (It’s Close to an Edge side 1 btw). People gravitate to their own little niche. I kinda hated jazz in my teens and early twenties. Then I sat down and listened and it just clicked one day. And I found myself thinking how ahead of the time was Bitches Brew compared to Sgt. Peppers in some some ways. Jazz still isn’t my favorite but I sure do love talent and even find myself occasionally wanting to chill to some jazz.I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on. From my short time as a reader in this forum, I believe there are enough people here who are classical music enthusiasts that are capable of having a relaxed and intelligent discussion about this topic. I just want to say ahead of time that I have no intention of personally hurting anyone, and what I write here represents my opinions alone (and possibly other people like me, but here I only speak for myself). And most importantly, I write here in the hope of changing my mind and maybe realize things I haven't known or thought of before.
As a starting point, this rant is somewhat a continuation of this old thread:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ou-get-everyone-to-like-classical-music.1729/
I wanted to respond to the question in that thread's title with my view on the subject as a relatively young person (29) that has been exposed many times to classical music, but has never been able to take any interest in it. And I'm not talking about hearing some accidental Mozart on the radio. My father (and also my mother to a lesser degree) is a huge classical music buff with a massive CD collection that I've heard in its entirety probably multiple times through the course of my life, as he played it in the house and in his car. I've been to several classical concerts with my parents, and even at operas (at Verona amphitheatre no less). I took piano lessons through my childhood, and can recognize by name quite a few classical pieces, and some of the easier ones I knew how to play at some point (forgot all my training by now though).
And despite all of this (or possibly because all of this…), I really hate classical music. I never listen to it by my own free will, I avoid concerts like the plague, and every time I tried to listen to something classical that might be "the one" to turn me, I got bored super-fast and didn't make it all the way through. There is no period or composer or instrument that can make me sit all the way through a piece. Music from the modern period and early periods (baroque and earlier) are especially agonizing, while to the romantic and classical periods I can listen as background music if I must. Opera and anything with singers sound completely horrible to me.
Now, it's not an issue with the music itself, so to speak (more on this later). I don't have allergy to violins and I don't mind listening to a solo piano (I do specifically hate opera-style singing, but that's not the majority of classical music anyway). And when a classical piece is adapted to a different genre, such as jazz or rock, I can comfortably sit and listen to it all the way through. I can find myself whistling classical tunes to myself occasionally because they are so engrained in my memory.
No, the first major obstacle of classical music, is the culture of classical music. That concept encapsulates so many practices that are very alienating to anyone not coming from inside that culture.
It starts with how a lot of classical music listeners and players perceive themselves and the music they play. It's no coincidence that it's common to categorize anything that is not classical music as pop-music. There is something about the attitude of the classical music people that is condescending and self-elevating. They commonly consider their music as more sophisticated, complex, deep, human, etc, than the "popular" genres of music. Some consider classical music "universal", as if it captures something more real or basic about humanity, and thus every human can relate to it. From my point of view, classical music is merely older, that's it. The virtue of age does not make it any truer, in the same way that old religions aren't truer because of their antiquity, and old science practices aren’t more accurate because they precede the current ones. It is true that a large part of today's musical understanding and composing practices derives from what was learned by classical composers, but in the same time there are a lot of aspects to modern music that have no root in classical music. And on top of that, classical music is merely a western concept after all, and it's hardly universal to people outside Europe and the US.
Another strange aspect of the culture, is the listening habits. Listening at home is indeed not a very different affair from listening to any other genre, apart from the average lengthiness of the pieces. But listening to a performance is a whole different beast. You need to dress up whether you are a spectator of a performer, go to a huge concert hall and sit totally quietly for hours at a time, clapping at the appropriate moments. The performers themselves are dressed like they are about to get married, and usually play with all these weird unnatural mannerisms. Of course these concerts are usually quite pricey, and to fully enjoy the pieces one should be deeply familiar with them and maintain focus for the duration of the performance. Although from my experiences, apart from the very lively conductor or soloist on stage, the audience usually resembles more of a funeral crowd than one that is engaged with the music they are listening to. It's such a different experience from any other modern music listening experience, that it's very hard to accustom yourself to it if you are used to go to 'normal' pop and rock concerts. And I don't see anything deeper of more profound in that way of experiencing live music. Sitting stiffly and quietly in a chair seems a lot less profound than standing, moving, dancing, and physically engaging with the music you are hearing.
The final cultural weirdness is the separation between composer and performer. It's to be expected from a genre whose composers mostly past away years ago and require many dozens of players to play most of its repertoire. But still, the fact that you not only need to find the right piece, but also the right performance in the right venue with the right orchestra being conducted by the right conductor, in order to listen to the truest or best form of that piece… it makes things very frustrating. The fact that there is not 'definite' version of a piece (akin to the album version of a song), puts more steps in the way of an uninitiated person's ability to appreciate the actual music itself.
That brings me to the minor but still crucial obstacle preventing me from actually appreciating classical music – the music. As I said before, there are pieces that I can enjoy humming and don't mind listening to in the background, and the instruments of the genre are fine by themselves. I love film scores and they are made of the same instruments and arranging techniques of classical music. The major issue I have is, for a lack of a better word, the overall blandness.
There is some percentage of classical music that is instantly catchy and widely recognizable, but the core repertoire is made of numerous symphonies and concertos that are mostly drone out and downright boring. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to stick to just short catchy songs. Most of my favorite music is made of long and complex prog-rock, jazz and metal pieces and songs, that take multiple listens to fully appreciate, and sometimes require deep understanding in musical theory to get to the bottom of. I am no stranger to deep diving into an intricate musical piece and exploring it to its fullest. I enjoy loud and energetic music as much as quiet and emotional one, and neither dynamics nor emotional content scares me.
But every time I hear a classical piece, huge chunks of musical potential are simply missing. The rhythmic content of these pieces is plain and groove-less. The harmonic content is often too consonant to a point of predictability, and every 'experimental' aspect of harmony or melody is very primitive compared to even the simplest of jazz or prog-rock. The constraints of the same typical orchestral instruments in all the pieces leads to dynamics that are pretty limited in their expression – they can't convey the exploding emotional effects of an electronic bass drop or searing guitar solos. The very long pieces like symphonies seem to me like they could be shortened by 80% while not losing any of the actual interesting parts. Most of it is transitions leading to build ups leading to wind downs and so forth without a real point to it all. And for some reason, modern classical music went deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of heady academic avant-garde, instead of trying to produce music that actually connect with people that don't have a bachelor degree in music. I see no justification in any art form that is produced to be consumed by only its producer.
Those are the main reasons why I don't like classical music. But this is frustrating, because I want to like it. I know that a lot of the modern music that I consume (whether prog-rock or films scores) was inspired by classical music. I hear all the people that tell about their transcendent experiences from listening to it, and I really believe them that they had those experiences, while I can't imagine having those myself listening to this music. It's not that I'm not getting all the emotional and spiritual fulfillment one needs from the music I listen to, because I do. But if there is something more to explore that I haven't been able to, it makes me feel like I'm missing out on a whole range of new possible musical sensations. From the little classical pieces that I do like, I can tell there is untapped potential for enjoyment, that is so far have laid just out of reach. The obstacles I listed above are not easy to overcome, but I hope there is a way to do so that will start me on a journey of rediscovery of this genre of music.
Thank you for your time, to whoever managed to read up to this point. Your thoughts, suggestions, and objections are welcome
Yeah, there is a very musically simple and repetitive style that seems to get a lot of attention lately, often featuring vocal pitch bending effects. People seem to love that. I can enjoy that kind of music like a quick snack if it has something catchy going on. I used to downplay all pop music for being simplistic. After taking some basic music classes in college I gained an appreciation for some of the interesting musical methods that modern pop musician/composers have developed. One of my instructors would sit down at the piano and play some of the chord transitions in a Billy Joel song (can't remember which one) and explain them, why they were so interesting and novel. I had to admit there was a certain brilliance to some of that, but then where do you go with that really cool riff? Maybe you get sentimental about that New York state of mind. I like that song, especially Diane Schuure's cover.
A modern musician with amazing musical technical chops is Jacob Collier. He is impressive, and I love watching him in explanatry mode playing and explain what he's doing, much like my college instructor did. When I just sit and listen to his music I find it isn't communicating much to me other than what a good musician he is. An interesting album somebody gave me is Alan Parsons Project's Tales of Mystery and Imagination, which centers on the writings of Edgar Alan Poe and combines orchestration and choral singing with good old rock 'n' roll drums and guitars, synths, and ambient sound effects. It's strange how this serious music comes across as enjoyable but very lightweight to me, like a B movie soundtrack, while a Gilbert and Sullivan comic operetta like the Mikado comes across with considerably more musical depth and insight. I'm happily listening to Tales of Mystery and Imagination while I write this.
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There is banal music and exciting music in all genres.
There are snobs in all genres of music. There are also anti-snob snobs, who think that all musical study (either as a performer or a listener) undermines musicality and soul. The rare world-class musician might not need advanced musical education to have world-class talent, but it won't do them any harm to receive that education. And it might broaden their horizons a bit, which is to be recommended to some in this thread. I don't know of anyone who lost their musical soul as a result of education, though I know several who were so restless in pursuit of innovation that they became too avant-garde for non-elite listeners to appreciate. That tendency does not seem to flow from education, though the desire for perpetual education my also be a product of that restlessness.
There has always been a tension between high-technique performers and highly musical performers, with the rarity of excelling at both defining world-class artistry. This is true in all genres. (Well, maybe except those genres that specifically eschew technique. I recall a quote from one of the Ramones that they played simplistic music because they couldn't play complicated music, and anyway girls just wanted something they could dance to. I think this was a common refrain in punk as a reaction to what they perceived as self-indulgent extended solos and undanceable prog, though, of course, not all punk was that simplistic just as not all prog was that self-indulgent.)
I think the pursuit of culture for the sake of being cultured leads people to snobbery. People who just like music are likely to be much broader in their tastes and positive in their pronouncements of what they like. I've been enough of a snob myself to recognize the tendency.
Rick "good music will prevail, ultimately" Denney
There are snobs in all genres of music. There are also anti-snob snobs, who think that all musical study (either as a performer or a listener) undermines musicality and soul. The rare world-class musician might not need advanced musical education to have world-class talent, but it won't do them any harm to receive that education. And it might broaden their horizons a bit, which is to be recommended to some in this thread. I don't know of anyone who lost their musical soul as a result of education, though I know several who were so restless in pursuit of innovation that they became too avant-garde for non-elite listeners to appreciate. That tendency does not seem to flow from education, though the desire for perpetual education my also be a product of that restlessness.
There has always been a tension between high-technique performers and highly musical performers, with the rarity of excelling at both defining world-class artistry. This is true in all genres. (Well, maybe except those genres that specifically eschew technique. I recall a quote from one of the Ramones that they played simplistic music because they couldn't play complicated music, and anyway girls just wanted something they could dance to. I think this was a common refrain in punk as a reaction to what they perceived as self-indulgent extended solos and undanceable prog, though, of course, not all punk was that simplistic just as not all prog was that self-indulgent.)
I think the pursuit of culture for the sake of being cultured leads people to snobbery. People who just like music are likely to be much broader in their tastes and positive in their pronouncements of what they like. I've been enough of a snob myself to recognize the tendency.
Rick "good music will prevail, ultimately" Denney
The biggest issue with classical music is the level of gatekeeping and snobbery within the community that is extremely offputting to newcomers who might otherwise like the music. I made the mistake one time of telling a classical music nerd I liked Haydn's keyboard concertos. It's apparantly not popular or socially acceptable in that community to like Haydn or even a lot of Mozart, with an exception of the operas. It's seen as too "basic," kind of like telling a metalhead you like Nickelback. Except, the classical music community doesn't have the kind of humor about it that the rock crowd does. That kind of gatekeeping is what drives people away and why classical seems like such an exclusive club. I love classical music myself, but don't care for it's fanbase. A lot of people complain about the toxicity of the fanbase of various genres, but from my personal experience, none of them have anything on classical.
Robin L
Master Contributor
As Classical Music is what I mainly listen to, and I have been listening to it for well over 50 years, I guess I've had more exposure to Classical Music fans. Some are snobs, but some are jokers. Some exult in their supposed knowledge on the subject, but to many others it's no big deal. Performers can be snobs, but in my experience most are not. Did you know Sandy Pearlman (Blue Oyster Cult producer, producer of a lot of other rock and punk groups) was a fan of Elizabethan/Jacobean music? The percussionist for the Berkeley Symphony Orchestra was otherwise engaged in playing rock. And Kent Nagano (Conductor of the BSO) recorded the first discs of Frank Zappa's orchestral music. Zappa, on the other hand, was quite the snob. He became highly regarded in the avant garde music community for his complex "Classical" scores. But he put down the London Symphony Orchestra for not being able to play his unplayable music.
It is socially acceptable in the classical music community to really like Haydn and Mozart. Mozart is truly loved for his operas, but also for his Symphonies and Piano Concerti. Haydn is highly regarded for his Symphonies and Piano Sonatas, even more for his String Quartets. In any case, it all boils down to the level of exposure one has to the community. A lot of the cliches come out of mass media portrayals that often portray Classical Music fans and musicians as villains. In my experience, a lot are ex-hippies. A favorite example is the late, great Peter Serkin, straddling high culture and the counterculture and making a point of playing a lot of new music for the concert hall. As a recording engineer I've recorded musicians who started out playing at Renaissance Faires and wound up as Early Music specialists. It really boils down to the level of exposure one has to the Classical Music community.
I haven’t run into anyone like that in 40 years. And even they would have been fine with Haydn and Mozart. As an avid classical listener, and former jazz/big band musician, this is pretty alien to me. I’ve seen more snobs in jazz.
My take on this is the biggest issue with classical music is the sound quality of the recordings and attempting to reproduce it on electronics and transducers. I was not @ all interested in classical because of these issues until I was invited by a girlfriend that I met by selling her some very expensive bookshelf speakers and peripheral gear. She was incredibly particular about the sound quality and I like that sort of customer a lot. So we dated and I was never allowed to hear her practice her flute playing... Never ever! I went to her recital finallly and it was a pianist and her the flautist performing Prokofiev. I started crying because it was so amazing and I was so proud of her...LoL.. I was a mess. The rich amazing sounds where out of this world and I have never experienced anything like that since. So yeah the overall package of the recorded sound quality is poor.
Robin L
Master Contributor
I listen to a lot of "historical" recordings and did from the very start. It's funny - though I have problems with most (not all) LP reproduction, I like the sound of well mastered 1930s and 1940s transcriptions of 78s to CD. I've been listening to a lot recently, having bought Artur Schnabel and Busch Quartet recordings from Ebay. It's a window into the past. I can accept the sound quality of more recent DDD recordings and found myself liking some of them a lot. But my experiences as a recording engineer demonstrated the distance between unamplified acoustic music and the recorded simulacra of the same. I think the biggest obstacle is the way microphones alter the sound. But I'm not all that bothered, knowing a bad seat in a good hall can do more damage than a mediocre recording.
I've been blown away at many concerts I've attended and recordings where I've been present for rehearsals. When the Berkeley Symphony Orchestra had the west coast première of Messiaen's Éclairs sur l'au-delà..., his last work, I was setting up microphones and standing in the middle of the woodwind section. The part they were rehearsing was a musical aviary, birdcalls bouncing back and forth. Possibly my greatest "audiophile" moment. There were also quite a few concerts of the chamber choir Kitka I attended. They perform arrangements of Bulgarian and other Eastern European musics with exquisite harmonies, much like Le Mystère des Voix Bulgares. But I have to mention having a front row seat at Davies Hall in San Francisco for Mahler's Resurrection Symphony, San Francisco Symphony Orchestra led my Michael Tilson Thomas. Biggest dynamic range of any concert I've been present, also a great performance.
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Can I post a rant about Millennial rants?
Nah, won't do.
I 'discovered' 'classical' music in a real way (versus the exposure one got from Bugs Bunny cartoons...which is not to be denigrated!) in my teens, by way of progressive rock music.
I can't count the many, many hours of pleasure I've gotten from listening to it in the 50 years since. Many 'moderns', but old stalwarts too (Beethoven, Bach, Berlioz...)
(Not Mozart, though...his stuff still bores the piss out of me. But that doesn 't mean I conclude he's a terrible, overrated composer. Just not my 'thing'.)
I pity the mindset that can't find *any* way into such a diversity of music as exists under the rubric 'classical'.
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WoW! What a word. It has such intriguing meaning and can be applied to so many things if one uses it well. Thanks for the awesome word power lesson of the day. LoL... Amazing word.
I have been to maybe twenty large jazz band concerts, lotsa head banging small venue cold beer sorta stuff, lotsa rock and roll stuff, a few classical symphony sort of very large venue events, many many small intimate venue 2 and 3 piece jazz fun events with cold beer and snacks too so very informal and loose. But the kind of venue I appreciated the most was a large heritage house with the very large high ceiling room on the main floor. Not sure what the room was called or for but the acoustics, the talent and the program material combO was astounding. I want to do it again! I'll pay happily for that. NO problemO.
I live in a musical wasteland at this time. There is a jazz club venue and they do have travelling musicians playing so there is variety but the schedule is spotty and I keep forgetting to check the schedule because of that. I really liked Vancouver for the various talent available most days of the week at a multitude of venues formal and casual.
That might be a suitable topic requiring input. I agree that this entire age category separation of people is out of hand.
Can I post a rant about Millennial rants?
Nah, won't do.
I 'discovered' 'classical' music in a real way (versus the exposure one got from Bugs Bunny cartoons...which is not to be denigrated!) in my teens, by way of progressive rock music.
I can't count the many, many hours of pleasure I've gotten from listening to it in the 50 years since. Many 'moderns', but old stalwarts too (Beethoven, Bach, Berlioz...)
(Not Mozart, though...his stuff still bores the piss out of me. But that doesn 't mean I conclude he's a terrible, overrated composer. Just not my 'thing'.)
I pity the mindset that can't find *any* way into such a diversity of music as exists under the rubric 'classical'.
Funny, but the first types music I actually like to listen in my latter years in college to were (i) the then popular folk music of the late '60s, and (ii) classical music.
I'm untrained as a musician or performer and have never been much of a concert goer for any type of music. As for classical music, I've attended a decent but not large number of instrumental and opera performances, but never been involved in "classical music culture" -- I just like to listen to classical music which I get almost entirely from recordings. I find the OP's comments not so much wrong or disagreeable as just irrelevant -- more about him than the music as some one observed.
By the way for would-be classical music snobs and aficionados I recommend the site, Good Music Guide. I visit it often though much of the discussion is above my head and interest.
I'm untrained as a musician or performer and have never been much of a concert goer for any type of music. As for classical music, I've attended a decent but not large number of instrumental and opera performances, but never been involved in "classical music culture" -- I just like to listen to classical music which I get almost entirely from recordings. I find the OP's comments not so much wrong or disagreeable as just irrelevant -- more about him than the music as some one observed.
By the way for would-be classical music snobs and aficionados I recommend the site, Good Music Guide. I visit it often though much of the discussion is above my head and interest.
That wasn't my point. 'Millennial rants" are a thing. I don't deny there's plenty for Millennials and Zs to rant about, given what they've inherited from the feckless previous gens....but I don't agree with every target, and some just seem absurdly overwrought, or blinkered by the certainty of youth.
That's from my aged perspective and its own accumulated biases, of course.
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I've experienced it with a young friend as he slurped 750mL or more of gin everyyy single day and then ranted about Boomers and such. It was disheartening at the least. They really have inherited a gong show I agree. They need to push through. I did and they can too if they make intention.
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