$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MKR]

I know @MKR said he already had the electronics to support passive options but since SPL is being talked about, should this make a difference or is unknown (to me) preamp/amp a possible issue?

If I go passive I can assure you there will be no limitations with the electronics capability

 

[MKR]

Bias.

It’s not practical to level match between auditions in different places / times, especially since you’re probably sitting at somewhat different listening angles / distances each time. If you’re at different angles / distances, the 1w/1m-based values might be less applicable to your impressions.
I meant did you hold up a phone app from a sitting position to get a general idea of how loudly speakers have been playing? This could be useful for both likable and lackluster setups.

I thought it’d be interesting to see if you’d correlate enjoyment from auditioning louder-playing speakers given the reiterated need for high SPL capability. Correlation doesn’t imply causation, but…
A bit of the follow-up disappointment among folks here seems to be from wanting to push AXPONA setups that were instead kept at polite levels. I agree that wouldn’t be much fun, and would remove a substantial part of the audition utility (for me).

Since you cannot keep listening levels constant, and cannot in fairness evaluate the same listening level equally among sessions through time, can’t hurt to keep tabs on the (different) listening levels in each case.

Those data may correlate with speakers you tend to like / dislike. Or those data might point nowhere. Can’t know without ‘em, but can be good to know one way or another.

In my particular case, collecting those figures over setups / time helped me realize I needed far less amp power than I would’ve thought for my speakers’ power handling ability; I realized how loud ~90 dB (avg) at listening distance feels after a few tracks of powerful, well-sourced music.

Understood. In fact this is exactly what I have been doing for as many of my auditions as possible (use a simple phone app to check SPL).

 

[JHC]

So... was on the same quest about a year ago, make the story short, I end up with Grimm LS1. Just want to share my experience, don't want to stir up anything, did compared Kii/D&D...

 

[MKR]

So... was on the same quest about a year ago, make the story short, I end up with Grimm LS1. Just want to share my experience, don't want to stir up anything, did compared Kii/D&D...

No stir up at all, appreciate you sharing! Grimm is very good, just not the best value vs D&D/Kii in my opinion.

 

[Adi777]

@MKR I looked at the price of these Credo Cinema LCM. Ouch
Btw, Legacy Audio V or Valor, and maybe also Aeris speakers don't need acoustic treatment? I ask, because I was reading in some review that Valor or V - I don't remember which one, don't need acoustic treatment - even can be worse with treatment. Maybe someone from Legacy Audio told you about this?

 

[MKR]

@MKR I looked at the price of these Credo Cinema LCM. Ouch
Btw, Legacy Audio V or Valor, and maybe also Aeris speakers don't need acoustic treatment? I ask, because I was reading in some review that Valor or V - I don't remember which one, don't need acoustic treatment - even can be worse with treatment. Maybe someone from Legacy Audio told you about this?

Well aware of the Credo price, hence reason I mentioned in my report these are sadly not on the short list, WAY over my budget (not even close, they are $200k I believe)

As to Aeris, V, and Valor, they are all EQed via the Wavelet (or Trinnov ), so indeed, no room treatment needed, or at least room treatment significantly minimized. Not 100% accurate, but one could say Aeris, V, and Valor are giant D&D, Kiis, etc, though they are not 100% active as the others are.

 

[fredoamigo]

Well aware of the Credo price, hence reason I mentioned in my report these are sadly not on the short list, WAY over my budget (not even close, they are $240k I believe)

As to Aeris, V, and Valor, they are all EQed via the Wavelet (or Trinnov ), so indeed, no room treatment needed, or at least room treatment significantly minimized. Not 100% accurate, but one could say Aeris, V, and Valor are giant D&D, Kiis, etc, though they are not 100% active as the others are.

If you liked the 8C which is very likely like all those who have listened, why not wait for the release of the "big 8C" which may be called "12C" there are rumors of their next release next year.
I really liked the 8C they will leave me an indelible memory after several listenings and it is sincerely one of the 3/4 best listenings that I could make... Only voilas, it arrives, and particularly on the live recording to make my listenings with realistic SPL levels and there the 8C could not make anything for me.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/axpona-dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeakers

There is also the Sigberg Audio Manta that I would like very much to listen to and that prefigures maybe what will be the future 8C
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...active-speakers-prototype-build-thread.28255/

 

[Gregm]

No stir up at all, appreciate you sharing! Grimm is very good, just not the best value vs D&D/Kii in my opinion.

Generally speaking, comparing the value of (well-engineered) active speakers to their passive brethren will probably always weigh in favour of the active variety (amp, cabling, and much less hassle - dsp included in the price, etc).
However, 30k will buy you more and bigger passive speakers than active... and you have a big room to fill, with sound commensurate to your investment.
When it comes to passives, I think you should look at sensitive speakers, capable of providing ¬100dB @1m quality, low distortion sound (i.e. 89-90dB at listening position). Practically, I'd recommend over 93dB /2.89V with serious power handling. Empirically speaking, the Perlistens & the Vivids bar the big ones (for all their talents) won't do it, nor will the Blade-2s.
Of the ones I know, Living Voice Auditorium speakers are around 93-4, the big Apertura (I have those) are 93 -- there are many others I can't think of off the top.
You've probably thought of this -- but have you considered horns?

 

[petezapie]

Well aware of the Credo price, hence reason I mentioned in my report these are sadly not on the short list, WAY over my budget (not even close, they are $240k I believe)

As to Aeris, V, and Valor, they are all EQed via the Wavelet (or Trinnov ), so indeed, no room treatment needed, or at least room treatment significantly minimized. Not 100% accurate, but one could say Aeris, V, and Valor are giant D&D, Kiis, etc, though they are not 100% active as the others are.

maybe someone here more technical can correct me if im wrong but i dont believe any of the EQ systems, wavelet, trinnov etc can correct for room problems in the time domain as it relates to off axis response and as such room treatment is still critical, especially at these performance levels.

 

[MasterApex]

Howdy All,

Just found this site few weeks ago, been a lurker since then, trying to learn, my first post here.

Been in the audiophile "game" for decades, been through many systems, had some great ones to be sure, but always felt I was missing something. NEVER considered active speakers until I started researching all the excellent material and forum on this site. Seems to be a no-brainer based upon reviews, but not being able to play with amps is a strange thought to be sure ... But no matter to me ... If I can get "end game" sound with active speakers, then so be it, I am agnostic!

Based upon all the reading on this site, my short lists are below ...

Active short list:
Genelec 8351B + W371A
Genelec 8361A + W371A
D&D 8C (plus subs?)
Neumann KH420 (plus subs?)
Kii Three + BXT

Passive short list:
KEF Blade Two Meta
Magico A5
Revel Ultima Salon 2
Revel Performa F228Be
Perlisten S7t
Vivid Audio Kaya 45

Note for this kind of money, of course I plan to listen to as many of these systems as possible, but would like to shrink the list a bit if possible, and that's where I need y'all's kind assistance.

My room is roughly 20'x40', with 10' vaulted ceilings. Will be primarily for music, but definitely plan to pull double duty also for home theater. Music preferences are everything (literally) except country (yuck).

So ... Opinions on the above choices? Anything not on the lists that I should consider?

Thanks all, really appreciate your help on my quest.

MKR

I would add B&W 800D3 or 801D4 on the list if you are listening to classical music and wants to have good soundstage. In my personal audition, they are better than KEF, Magico and Revel.

 

[SuicideSquid]

I would add B&W 800D3 or 801D4 on the list if you are listening to classical music and wants to have good soundstage. In my personal audition, they are better than KEF, Magico and Revel.

B&W are not terribly well-regarded around these parts. Those are fine speakers but significantly overpriced for their actual measured performance.

 

[Doodski]

B&W are not terribly well-regarded around these parts. Those are fine speakers but significantly overpriced for their actual measured performance.

Whomever it is should listen to as many speakers as possible while observing good measurement technical hygiene.

 

[benanders]

Whomever it is should listen to as many speakers as possible while observing good measurement technical hygiene.

Yes. And in that order, unfortunately.
I keep thinking back to the quote:
Measurements should be used to confirm what you hear.
The reason this is very accurate and yet going against the notion of building a list of interest based on measurements first, is because reviewing measurements before you listen introduces unavoidable perceptual bias.
Very hard to do the speaker audition hobby and keep free of significant bias if your experiences are being led (vs. confirmed) by measurements.
Just reiterating the obvious conundrum.

 

[Doodski]

Yes. And in that order, unfortunately.
I keep thinking back to the quote:
Measurements should be used to confirm what you hear.
The reason this is very accurate and yet going against the notion of building a list of interest based on measurements first, is because reviewing measurements before you listen introduces unavoidable perceptual bias.
Very hard to do the speaker audition hobby and keep free of significant bias if your experiences are being led (vs. confirmed) by measurements.
Just reiterating the obvious conundrum.

It's six of one and a half dozen of the other issue. Equal on all fronts.

 

[benanders]

It's six of one and a half dozen of the other issue. Equal on all fronts.

Sorry - I do not understand what you mean.

 

[Doodski]

Sorry - I do not understand what you mean.

I using slang English meant to say that some positive results equal the negative results.

 

[Emlin]

Yes. And in that order, unfortunately.
I keep thinking back to the quote:
Measurements should be used to confirm what you hear.
The reason this is very accurate and yet going against the notion of building a list of interest based on measurements first, is because reviewing measurements before you listen introduces unavoidable perceptual bias.
Very hard to do the speaker audition hobby and keep free of significant bias if your experiences are being led (vs. confirmed) by measurements.
Just reiterating the obvious conundrum.

A better quote says that if it measures well, it will sound good to most people most of the time , if it doesn’t, it might sound good to you, some of the time.

 

[benanders]

A better quote says that if it measures well, it will sound good to most people most of the time , if it doesn’t, it might sound good to you, some of the time.

That quote also doesn’t address the issue I commented on.

 

[Lsc]

B&W are not terribly well-regarded around these parts. Those are fine speakers but significantly overpriced for their actual measured performance.

I thought the Bowers & Wilkins 800 series were bargains when compared to other outrageously priced speakers at Axpona.

The demo of the 802D4 was not the best at the show though and sounded much better at the dealer I visited. Not that it matters since I don’t plan on buying them.

 

[benanders]

Understood. In fact this is exactly what I have been doing for as many of my auditions as possible (use a simple phone app to check SPL).

Very good. Potential utility of this practice might go down if SPL peaks / averages are being measured from different tracks / source files each time (e.g. different vendor rooms at an expo), but I still prefer to have the data than to lack them.

In that vain, and I might have commented already - always best to use your own source file(s) every time, as in your own thumb drive etc. Many favored tracks have multiple presses / (re)masters, especially older pieces. If you don’t know which one you’re listening to, it can introduce considerable variance to your experience. (As an aside, that’s the main reason I eschew music streaming services.)

Now if you and the given speaker demo guy/gal both use the same streaming service, then no prob using their source files instead of yours.