$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Gringoaudio1]

Shows are the worst place to judge audio quality. Been to CES a few times. It’s just ridiculous how bad some supposedly good stuff sounds and how good some cheap stuff sounds. You just can’t trust your ears at the show. And even just auditioning stuff at shops you are completely subject to flashy presentation an overly bright speaker might make. It’s all bullshit. This is the biggest longest most accepted subjective thread ASR has ever allowed to continue beyond the ridiculous. We know the salon 2 and all Revel measure well. All your subjective impressions of the legacy etc. are meaningless. if it’s just about what do you like go hang out with Andrew Robinson.

 

[FrankW]

We know the salon 2 and all Revel measure well. All your subjective impressions of the legacy etc. are meaningless.

Meaningless to him...or "We"??

 

[Purité Audio]

Shows are the worst place to judge audio quality. Been to CES a few times. It’s just ridiculous how bad some supposedly good stuff sounds and how good some cheap stuff sounds. You just can’t trust your ears at the show. And even just auditioning stuff at shops you are completely subject to flashy presentation an overly bright speaker might make. It’s all bullshit. This is the biggest longest most accepted subjective thread ASR has ever allowed to continue beyond the ridiculous. We know the salon 2 and all Revel measure well. All your subjective impressions of the legacy etc. are meaningless. if it’s just about what do you like go hang out with Andrew Robinson.

Unfortunately this is largely true, all ‘possibles’ must be heard in your own space imho. Ideally next to the current incumbents.
Shows are fun but not the place to make a final decision and I speak from personal experience!
Keith

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Meaningless to him...or "We"??

Oh sure it’s useful for him somewhat. And ultimately you have to like your gear. I am as guilty as anyone about making subjective decisions. Unfortunately I made my major investments in audio before I discovered ASR.
It is all very entertaining though I must say and apologies to the original poster. But it’s pretty far from the mandate of this forum.

 

[MattHooper]

Shows are the worst place to judge audio quality. Been to CES a few times. It’s just ridiculous how bad some supposedly good stuff sounds and how good some cheap stuff sounds. You just can’t trust your ears at the show. And even just auditioning stuff at shops you are completely subject to flashy presentation an overly bright speaker might make. It’s all bullshit. This is the biggest longest most accepted subjective thread ASR has ever allowed to continue beyond the ridiculous. We know the salon 2 and all Revel measure well. All your subjective impressions of the legacy etc. are meaningless. if it’s just about what do you like go hang out with Andrew Robinson.

Sure there are big caveats to show demos. Nonetheless, my experience, and that of many I know of, isn't so despairing.

I've been led to a number of very happy purchases from having been impressed by gear (speakers in particular) at shows. That's true of my current speakers, and several in the past (I can think of 5 brands off-hand that I ended up really enjoying at home, which first impressed me at shows) .

 

[AudioJester]

Measurement is the start, make sure its not broken and is fit for purpose. Then listening is critical for our individual preferences, and we have to listen by whatever means we can - stores, shows, demos, friends etc.
How else is the op supposed to do it?

Might not be the perfect scientific evaluation but I learn very useful things about products at shows and get exposure to way more systems than i would anywhere else

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I have a hard time understanding why the Legacy V has horizontally aligned midrange woofers and a sideways AMT tweeter. I guess those are actually two 4" tweeters side by side to form "a specially optimized post convergent array." I have never heard of post convergent array and neither has ChatGPT. I can just imagine the ragged comb filtered off axis response of this speaker in the mid to high frequencies.

You can say almost anything if you put it in quotes and not provide a reference.

 

[TimW]

@Kal Rubinson Here you go.

 

[Duke]

So … My best of show? Cost no object easily the Credo Cinema LTM. If I had the funds, this would be a no-brainer done deal. But very sadly I do not (not even close, at least if I want to retire some day) and these will have to remain untouchable dream speakers. Down the cost chain would be the Clarysis, Diptque, Legacy V System and Aeris. Followed by the Linkwitz 521 and Piegas, Stenheim.

Enjoyed your show report immensely! THANK YOU for taking the time.

I couldn't help but notice the dominance of relatively unconventional loudspeakers on your "best of show" list. Arguably all eight are doing something unconventional as far as the radiation pattern (and therefore room interaction) goes!

Credo Cinema LTM: Line array

Clarysis: Dipole planar

Diptque: Dipole planar

Legacy V System: Narrow-pattern dipole with cardioid bass (I think)

Legacy Aeris: Dipole with hypercardioid bass (I think)

Linkwitz 521: Dynamic dipole

Piega: Dipole planar with monopole woofer section

Stenheim: Most "conventional" of the bunch, vertically symmetrical monopole

 

[Emlin]

@Kal Rubinson Here you go.

View attachment 280309

I've always been a sucker for masterfully presented treble.

Whatever that may be.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

@Kal Rubinson Here you go.

View attachment 280309

Thanks. Since they do not enclose the statement in quotation marks, they imply it is a real, engineering-based construction and, therefore, it is incumbent on them to explain it.

 

[mglobe]

Enjoyed your show report immensely! THANK YOU for taking the time.

I couldn't help but notice the dominance of relatively unconventional loudspeakers on your "best of show" list. Arguably all eight are doing something unconventional as far as the radiation pattern (and therefore room interaction) goes!

Credo Cinema LTM: Line array

Clarysis: Dipole planar

Diptque: Dipole planar

Legacy V System: Narrow-pattern dipole with cardioid bass (I think)

Legacy Aeris: Dipole with hypercardioid bass (I think)

Linkwitz 521: Dynamic dipole

Piega: Dipole planar with monopole woofer section

Stenheim: Most "conventional" of the bunch, vertically symmetrical monopole

Add the D&D 8C to that list in terms of his level of approval. Yet another with a fairly unconventional radiation pattern. Interesting observation.

 

[benanders]

…
Scaena Iso Linear Array - Definitely wanted to hear these. Interesting line array design with massive stacks of separate subs (which never played for some reason). Sadly these were disappointing. No imagining whatsoever, actually a small soundstage, tiny sweet spot. Anemic LF. …

“Anemic”?
Did an OP accept a colorful kids’ drink at the show from the audiophil…
Prodding aside, thanks for taking time to listen and post, @MKR

Credo Cinema LTM - Never heard of this brand before and I was shocked. Massive line array loudspeakers. Amazing, dynamic, crystal clear sound, smooth, spooky holographic imagery and detail, low freq that kicked you in the just and made your cheeks flap. Blah, blah. It was all there. Simply Superb loudspeakers. But, WAY over my budget.

Wasn’t going to mention, but… eventually finding the favorite setup in what you can’t afford seems a real risk. A friend’s Wisdom “habitat” I enjoyed years ago could have similarly affected me: after all, it was a real CINEMA in a private residence. I felt/feel lucky that my lifestyle hasn’t/doesn’t include a wish/want for a dedicated audio room (no judgement of those who do), or I might feel encumbered by that memory. I can only imagine, since it’s not a conundrum I share, but:
How skewed does a search feel, or become, once you hear a hands-down favorite you can’t (rea$onably / reali$tically / po$$ibly) make happen? Is it a precursor to hopscotching through subjectively inferior (but comparatively affordable) models?**

I was shown photos of Benchmark’s AXPONA setup with very narrow (single driver column) line arrays - did anyone listen to those?

**Ominous track by Angelo Badelamenti plays in background while query is made.

 

[fredoamigo]

In the words of MKR following the visit to Chicago, I feel that there is more and more confusion unless I am wrong?
Indeed, the problem of these big shows to make a choice is precisely the overchoise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overchoice and that's where a casting error may occur. Some contenders of the short list have now disappeared and others appear but this time on subjective listening (note that the newcomers have no measures) so with a greater margin of error.

 

[symphara]

“Anemic”?
Did an OP accept a colorful kids’ drink at the show from the audiophil…
Prodding aside, thanks for taking time to listen and post, @MKR



Wasn’t going to mention, but… eventually finding the favorite setup in what you can’t afford seems a real risk. A friend’s Wisdom “habitat” I enjoyed years ago could have similarly affected me: after all, it was a real CINEMA in a private residence. I felt/feel lucky that my lifestyle hasn’t/doesn’t include a wish/want for a dedicated audio room (no judgement of those who do), or I might feel encumbered by that memory. I can only imagine, since it’s not a conundrum I share, but:
How skewed does a search feel, or become, once you hear a hands-down favorite you can’t (rea$onably / reali$tically / po$$ibly) make happen? Is it a precursor to hopscotching through subjectively inferior (but comparatively affordable) models?**

I was shown photos of Benchmark’s AXPONA setup with very narrow (single driver column) line arrays - did anyone listen to those?

View attachment 280342

**Ominous track by Angelo Badelamenti plays in background while query is made.

Some good points there. I wonder if @MKR didn't box himself in a little when he approached this thing as if these were the last speakers he was ever going to purchase (at least for his main system).

Even if that turns out to be the case, I'd take the pressure off myself by rather going with "something good enough that I'd like to have and enjoy now, and can always change later", instead of "best ever that I will never replace thus I shouldn't make an error choosing".

The problem with "best ever", as someone already pointed out, is that you can keep going up in price well over your budget, and discover better and better. And then the choice is between blowing up the budget or regretting the process. I did this with a car, and ended up with something really expensive. On the bright side, nothing else is really an upgrade. On the down side, you get stuck there, it's hard to change to anything else except for the newer model...

 

[MKR]

What an awesome and no doubt exhausting trip. Interesting your comments on the Vandy's. A buddy of mine has the Quads, which have a built-in sub, and they sound quite nice to my ear. Also interesting on the planar speakers. I always enjoy planers when I audition them, but I can never get myself over the whole setup issues. In addition I always wonder if I'm being swayed by the soundstage, and am missing something on the FR side.

No Blades? I can't remember if you crossed them off the list a long time ago or not.

I was really hoping there would be a pair of Blades here, as they have certainly proved elusive to audition. But no. And not only that, I did not see KEF anywhere at the show. Strange.

 

[MKR]

I have a hard time understanding why the Legacy V has horizontally aligned midrange woofers and a sideways AMT tweeter. I guess those are actually two 4" tweeters side by side to form "a specially optimized post convergent array." I have never heard of post convergent array and neither has ChatGPT. I can just imagine the ragged comb filtered off axis response of this speaker in the mid to high frequencies.

Agreed. And I tried to pick Bill’s ear on this, in addition to the side by side upper mids on the V System (this seems a recipe for disaster), but he was non stop speaking with folks at the show, so was tough to get his attention. But what I can say is subjectively there were no audible issues with this driver arrangement, far from it. But I still want to know, I’ll be reaching out to Legacy to better understand this, will report my findings.

 

[MKR]

I would certainly want to listen carefully at different off-axis angles (unless I was buiding a system for one sweet-spot listener only).

Looking at the driver layout on the Aeris, the V, and the Whisper, I conclude that Legacy does not have a coherent design philosophy towards horizontal dispersion. It would be interesting to hear a real explanation of each design, without the marketing "post convergent array" mumbo-jumbo.

I certainly did listen off-axis during audition and there were no audible issues. Very wide dispersion. But I agree on the marketing mumbo jumbo.

 

[MKR]

Wow you definitely looked at way more than my buddy and I did. Your assessment on the salon2 is spot on as we felt the same. The funny thing is they were also showcasing the limited edition Mark Levinson amps. Thankfully all doubt was erased when I came home.

It’s too bad I didn’t get a chance to listen to the Legacy speakers at all.

What’s crazy is that a $30k budget may be considered a modest budget at Axpona. Hearing speakers over $100k is enjoyable but not realistic for most of us. Lucky for my wife, I told her after coming home and spending 30 minutes to 1 hour with my system (after hooking up the bluesound node) that I won’t need to buy new speakers for at least several years. It was music to her ears! Pun intended .

Hi end audio has gone off the deep end imho. All those stupid cables and gimmicks…I guess we all gotta make a buck. I just wont be spending any of my money on stuff like that.

Yeah, there were a LOT of ridiculous prices, and more snake oil than ever, welcome to HEA … as long as people keep buying this nonsense, they will be happy to keep making it … ya gotta sift through the nonsense to get to the “real”

 

[FrankW]

It is all very entertaining though I must say and apologies to the original poster. But it’s pretty far from the mandate of this forum.

What mandate for selecting speakers for oneself?