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DAC Upgrade to R2R advice

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nikkon

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Would you mind giving us your reasons behind your short list above? Thanks!
Sure. For the all 3(including SMS’s m400 & rme Adi-2, Octo dac 8)the reviews & measurements are great. all have the inputs I need. Audio-gd is the only r2r here. The reason I consider it ( or an r2r in general) is because of the music source I have. I do not have any dsd so far and I believe for now the high-res PCM is important for my setup and the music I have. And this opens a new set of questions for me specifically related to my setup and where the music starts ( rpi3, linear source, Is2overUSB converter)
to resume: I hope I have the chance to listen to all of them, compare them with my rd26 then decide.
 
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NDC

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Sure. For the all 3(including SMS’s m400 & rme Adi-2)the reviews & measurements are great. all have the inputs I need. Audio-gd is the only r2r here. The reason I consider it ( or an r2r in general) is because of the music source I have. I do not have any dsd so far and I believe for now the high-res PCM is important for my setup and the music I have. And this opens a new set of questions for me specifically related to my setup and where the music starts ( rpi3, linear source, Is2overUSB converter)
to resume: I hope I have the chance to listen to all of them, compare them with my rd26 then decide.

audio-gd is essentially a scam - I’d stay away from their products.
 
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nikkon

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Didn't knew that. thanks for letting me know. I will be carefull.
Is the implementation you are referring to as a scam? or the general product. the components seems to be pretty ok for the price.
 

FrantzM

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Nikkon

Please do not take this post as patronizing.
Welcome to this forum. It is a breath of fresh air. I hope you are sincere in your search.

If you are. do know that past a certain level of objective performance, all DACs sound the same. Let us arbitrarily set this level of performance in term of pricing, knowing that aesthetics build quality and features may drive one to spend more. I will be blunt and tell you that something as the Khadas Tone Board which I have, is transparent, in other it acquits itself of the job of converting Digital to Analog in a way the ear cannot, let me rephrase No Human ear apparatus can detect. It come as a board is ugly as hell and has been working for me flawlessly for close to 2 years ... If I was buying right now, I'd go for the Topping D10 for the same price and the same level of objectively , measurably high performance, for $99, free 2-day shipping if you are on Amazon Prime. It comes in a small sturdy box and has a nice display etc .. It is also powered form the USB port of your PC... It does not a SPDI/F input, for that you need to go to the Topping D50 @ $250. Same level of high performances, good build etc ... both will surpass in objective performance any R2R you can buy on the market ...

R2R is a way to do the same, that is to convert a digital signal to analog, It's main attribute is simplicity and it is supposed to be even cheaper than chip-based Delta Sigma. R2R relies on the precision of a bunch of resistors... Implementation is difficult , near impossible as resistors value varies with temperature, etc.. At the end R2R DAC do not ever come as close theoretically perfect Digital to Analog Conversion as the chip-based Delta Sigma... as the other DACs, you know, those cheap DACs under $500 such as the marvelous Topping DX7 or SML or the plethora reviewed here on ASR.
The only way for those companies that make the R2R to sell their wares, is to induce you in fantasy... in subjective rethorics , you know , from Audio magazine, reviewers and audiophile forums, As you climb the price ladder according to these, the more expensive DAC will be more "organic", the stage more "fleshed-out", the midrange more "natural" and the bass more "meaty" or "Strong" or "extended" or "ripe, not dry" etc.. All subjective attributes that your mind can attach to things once you have been subjected to the continuous bombing, that made of you a believer.

One of the thing you would come out with from this asr Forum, is that the issues of electronics, are solved. No adverb required. Amp solved: a Hypex or Purifi-based amplifier is transparent, powerful and relatively inexpensive, DAC: no more than $100 buys you a transparent DAC. $500 is the point of diminishing returns. There are up to $2000 DACs that are loved by ASRists because they break the performance ceilings ... RME, Okto, Benchmark , Oppo, Toppings, SMSL, etc... ASRists will buy those, knowing for well, they are buying Engineering excellence, not audible differences.

How do we improve our systems then ..? You would ask. Speakers, those things that try to transform electric impulses into sound waves are the weak link. They are not (yet?) perfect. They sound vastly different in most cases. The other problem is the room, below 200 Hz the room dominates the response, the most accurate speaker could be transformed by a room in a boom box or a no-bass system.. Worse it depends on where you sit, where you place the speakers, room constructions and material.. so many parameters, it is a wonder some systems manage to sound good without extensive room treatments. On that there is also a serious discussion... Back in the days they (audiophile companies and their press) would tell you to use Tube Traps or similar contraption to tame the bass... There is some truth to that but keep in mind that addressing low-bass (under 60 Hz e.g.) requires traps that are huge .. I mean, meters as in several meters long , wide and deep The best solution so far is to use multiple subs and that is not easy to pull of ...

So , again, if you are sincerely trying to improve your system. Do not spend , yet, a dime. Stay in this forum. Read, try to understand, ask questions, they will answer if your questions are honest (notice the constant questioning about your intent?). We have seen people trolling us we have become a bit paranoiac.
Again Welcome , ASR should emancipate you and allow to use your hard -earned money more wisely, Through this forum you will understand that building a top-flight, accurate and satisfying audio system doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg...

Peace.
 
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nikkon

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@FrantzM thank you for taking the time to reply and for your honesty!
i believe every user who took the time to reply and try to help me, was honest and I respect that. This forum is a nice piece of experience and honesty!
I was thinking about your advice a few hours...it is true I like to play for engineering excellence too. I believe in supporting good engineering in a world of 99% garbage makes a difference!
if I started to look now for the upgrade...I will take me months to decide. Hope to also listen some of them before. The biggest investment for me will defo be the speakers ( I hope I get the Elac 409) + room adjustments.
thank you.
 

mansr

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R2R is a way to do the same, that is to convert a digital signal to analog, It's main attribute is simplicity and it is supposed to be even cheaper than chip-based Delta Sigma.
If you want anything resembling decent audio performance, delta-sigma will be cheaper than R2R. As you say, an accurate R2R DAC is almost impossible to make. A delta-sigma design trades analogue complexity for digital. The nice thing about digital is that it's exact even if built cheaply, and it's much easier to manufacture a large number of switching transistors than a few precision analogue components. Digital oversampling has been used since the early days of CD for this reason.
 

Rja4000

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Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the forum so if I missed something...i apologise in advance
My setup today: Amp Yamaha AS1000, DAC Ad Labs RD26, Speakers: Elac FS189
I intend to upgrade my actual Amp and dac. Amp will be an Yamaha AS-2200
As for the DAC, I was thinking to get the Denafrips Pontus. Based in the reviews I read, seems to be the best choice in this (<2000$) price range.
Any advice from your side? Are there any other good options I should look for ?
I didn't even know such DAC exists.
Looking at the specs they publish, we see
THD+N 0.0025%.
That's 92dB SINAD. Not exactly state of the art. Not even enough to be truely transparent to the 16 bits CD format.
Also, 1250 ohm output impedabce (balanced) seems quite high. Twice as much as typical <600 ohm.
Personnaly, I also wouldn't purchase a device with so many capacitors, aligned close to each other.
But thats just me, probably.
 
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nikkon

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I didn't even know such DAC exists.
Looking at the specs they publish, we see
THD+N 0.0025%.
That's 92dB SINAD. Not exactly state of the art. Not even enough to be truely transparent to the 16 bits CD format.
Also, 1250 ohm output impedabce (balanced) seems quite high. Twice as much as typical <600 ohm.
Personnaly, I also wouldn't purchase a device with so many condensers, aligned close yo each other.
But thats just me, probably.

AD-Labs is, or it used to be part of Rockna audio.Definitely build by the same guys there. http://soundnews.ro/2011/07/24/ad-labs-rd26-review/
 

Rja4000

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@nikkon

I think we are on the same boat. I'm looking to upgrade my equipment too, preferably upgrading my DAC. I prefer to ground my selection of audio gears based on the data of properly done objective test like what @amirm do here in the forum. I've been lurking here for quite sometime now, and just now stumbles on your thread. Here are my system and why I chose them, maybe my frame of thought might help you.

2x ADAM AUDIO S3X-H (https://www.adam-audio.com/en/sx-series/s3x-h/)
1x ADAM AUDIO SUB 24 (https://www.adam-audio.com/en/archived-products/sub24/)
1x NAD M51 DAC (https://nadelectronics.com/product/m51-direct-digital-dac/)

I made my balanced interconnects using Mogami model no 2549 microphone cable (http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/quality_balanced/) with Neutrik ConvertCON (https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nc3fm-c-b?c=audio) at every end.

As for power cables, I use IBM server power cables that I got laying around, it's a bit too large for the power consumption I'm using them for, but I'm not making power cables :D

Here's the rationale, in hierarchical order of importance:
1. Speakers.
Recording Studios, when creating music, will use certain class of hardware for audio monitoring. These hardware has their own specification and performance metrics to fulfill. I, as a budget-conscious consumer, I lean toward these class of hardware. Thus after several months of research, and listen to several dozen pairs of studio monitors, I land my choice to ADAM AUDIO. Their A7x blew my audio horizon wide open, that there is such a thing as "holy shit this is too cheap for something sound like this"-kinda thing. After I heard the A7x, I crave something that has MORE, in power, dynamics, sheer SPL, clarity, EVERYTHING. I was out for my "end-game" gear. Then I read around, what studio monitors does world class studio uses in their day today process, ADAM AUDIO S3A pops a bit too many times in my research period (the one that made me chose ADAM was when I saw a pair in Abbey Road Studios, https://www.adam-audio.com/en/news/adam-users/abbey-road-studios/), but it was already an archived product at the time, thus I look for it's successor, the legendary S3X-H. After I had a listen, I was literally dropped my jaw, the sheer precision, SPL, the dynamics, the sound stage, the image that I got from a basically two "center" speakers side by side. I was in awe. I found my "end-game" gear. I don't go with the route of pre-power amp-passive speakers simply because I don't want to pair what amp to what speaker, it was a hassle. Having a properly designed active studio monitor with properly matched amp<->driver from the factory, IMHO, is THE BEST option I can have at the time. My ADAM S3X-H has several amplifiers inside it that drives each individual driver separately, and perfectly. As for the subwoofer, I prefer to have full bandwidth of ~20 to 20KHz on tap. And subwoofers are weird little thing that is easy to make, but hard to perfect. My rationale here is I need 2 mechanically coupled subwoofers that are back-to-back, and ADAM AUDIO had 2 of them, one was SUB20 (2x 10" drivers) and SUB24 (2x 12" drivers). I ordered the SUB24 simply because subwoofers needs to move a lot of air, so larger cone is better - that was my rationale, and I was not disappointed.

This is the first one in my list because it's the closest to me as a listener. I need to have a GOOD SPEAKER SYSTEM, preferably with good amplifier to match. Having a properly designed active studio monitor solves my amplifier and passive speaker system problem.

2. DACs.
Finding DAC was not easy. I was rummaging Stereophile back then for specs, test results, and written reviews. At the time, for DACs that has good test results were $5K+ EXCEPT for one, the NAD M51. I went and have a listen and was love struck by the sound (after 7 years, I found out that the specs and test results aren't as good as what I thought it to be (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ments-of-nad-m51-dac-and-digital-preamp.6681/). But back then, it was the most astounding sounding system for my budget.

This is the second one in my list because, at the time, most DACs are transparent enough, but most of them are not clean enough from distortion, the cheaper one that I can get was NAD M51, and it sounded REALLY GOOD for me.

3. Interconnects.
Finding interconnects brought me back to Recording Studios again. They use balanced microphone cables, well made, relatively cheap, and quite rugged. After testing several "Hi-fi interconnects" (such as CHORD, AudioQuest, Nordost and several other, I forgot the makers but I tested several dozen interconnects), I chose to make one my self, buying one roll of Mogami 2549 (some 300 feet per roll IIRC) and bought my self Neutrik ConvertCON simply because that's the only connector that is sold here in Indonesia and has gold contacts. I made sure every welds are properly connected and shielded from each other within the connector and proceeds to bring my hand made interconnects to my friends that has expensive interconnects and had a little test. To the ears of 8 people, cable "B" (I label it cable "B" for double blind test, I label the cables, and asked the help of a friend's wife to be the switcher) came out second, the first was Nordost one, I forgot the model name, but it was a Nordost made interconnect and it was VERY EXPENSIVE. Going back home from there, I was grinning ear to ear, that I got a VERY GOOD interconnects for a fraction of the price of a Nordost made interconnect.

This is the last thing in my list simply because, it's a freaking cable, it changes a tiny bit compared if I chose the wrong speaker system, and I'm not spending a lot of money here, I will not.

One more thing, I chose my system to use balanced interconnects even when many "test" shows that balanced interconnects has more noise, my logic says otherwise and I stuck to my logic.

Currently I want to upgrade my system, but are in limbo. I haven't been able to find anything that can touch my current system in price/performance metrics. I'm VERY INTERESTED into @MatrixAudio Element X (https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/321.html and the review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...matrix-audio-element-x-dac-streamer-amp.7782/) simply because the have THE BEST VOLUME CONTROL implementation I found in "cheaper" DACs if I ever saw one. But the thing is, it does not have DSP for room correction, or loudness compensation (The Fletcher–Munson curves, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour). That broke my heart. I'm currently looking at miniDSP SHD Studio (https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio) and dac8PRO from @Okto Research (https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm) as a combo device. As for speakers, I'm currently looking at HEDD Tower Mains system (https://hedd.audio/towermains/), this system is made by the original designer of my ADAM S3X-H. I like the way he made his speaker systems.

In the end, I fell in love with @MatrixAudio Element X's volume control and SINAD results (it's simply a transparent equipment), but want miniDSP SHD Studio's DIRAC Live, PEQ, time delay management, and many others of it's features in Element X. I asked @MatrixAudio if they are going to plan on making something with DSP like miniDSP SHD, sadly they said no... Now I'm torn, and kept searching...

For now, my list are:
1. MiniDSP SHD Studio (next planned upgrade).
2. dac8PRO by Okto Research (next planned upgrade).
3. RME ADI 2 DAC fs (VERY VERY INTERESTED).
4. dac8stereo by Okto Research (just interested).
5. Matrix Audio Element X (just interested).

Still searching for more options...
Hi
I happen to own an M51 myself.
I was and still am pretty happy with its sound.
I could indeed reproduce the same measurement that Amir did, and I can see the same issue.
But truth is that I like how it sounds enough not to change it.
If I do, that will be because I want other features.
 
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nikkon

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ah gotcha!
 

zzz2496

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Hi
I happen to own an M51 myself.
I was and still am pretty happy with its sound.
I could indeed reproduce the same measurement that Amir did, and I can see the same issue.
But truth is that I like how it sounds enough not to change it.
If I do, that will be because I want other features.
I found out something weird, I attenuate my ADAM to -12dB (through it's input gain/attenuation), and set my NAD M51 to -2dB, low and behold, IT SOUNDS A LOT BETTER !!!
 

UpTo11

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Consider Holo Audio as an alternative to Denafrips.
The Cyan DAC/Headphone amp got a good review here.
 
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nikkon

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I am looking now at Gustard DAC A22
 

Harmonie

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I had the Gustard A22 and found it very pleasant, singing/involving in every aspect, piano, organ, strings (down to contrabass), voices & good output stage 3/6 volts ...
 
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SIY

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nikkon

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agree. it just makes the decision harder :)
 

Jimbob54

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It's a good product. But whether you want to pay that much for it is up to you. Also as we discussed earlier, a DAC is very unlikely to change your listening experience.

Might not change actual listening experience but I have a suspicion it will change OP perceived experience.
 
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