Back into audio after retiring...(tl;dr Help!)

[6sigma]

After many years away from the hobby, I'm attempting to re-enter in retirement. A kind member here has answered a bunch of my back-channel questions. However, I don't want to continue to bug him, and some of what I'm still curious about may be worth an open discussion. To keep it brief, I'll just ask the questions:

1. Does measurement-based, science-oriented, Toole-approved audio mean that we no longer buy because others said an item "sounds good?" Dealers once gave advice & a demo. Trusted friends with similar sound quality tastes filled the gaps when the dealers were gone. How do we find the items that have been verified as "not bringing a sound into" our audio systems?

2. Does any manufacturer besides Harman follow Toole's suggested measurements & tell us they do? Are there any other "measurement-oriented" suppliers of speakers besides the JBL, Revel, etc., group?

3. Decades back I had "highly recommended" systems costing many thousands of dollars, but connected them with cheap interconnects and zip cord for speaker wire. I don't recall a single time that my decisions were made around science. All of it was "perceived sound." I didn't like it then, but I'm eager to apply this new approach to a search for a $1000-$6000 entry system that doesn't add anything to the sound of the recording. Paraphrasing Toole, I'd like to leave the art to the artists & recording engineers, and let the system/components be based on science & measurements. Any tips on making this happen?

I like this place & what I've read thus far. Thanks to each of you.
[disclaimer: I'm a noob here & have been searching & reading, but if this is the wrong kind of question, or belongs elsewhere, I'll let a moderator move or delete it.]

 

[Sancus]

2. Does any manufacturer besides Harman follow Toole's suggested measurements & tell us they do? Are there any other "measurement-oriented" suppliers of speakers besides the JBL, Revel, etc., group?

Lots. This thread may be of use.

 

[6sigma]

Lots. This thread may be of use.

That thread looks invaluable. Thanks for the pointer & sorry I had missed it until now.

 

[Kouioui]

6sigma, I still have an Advent receiver I bought new in 1978. Using it as a phono preamp to digitize LPs. Engineered by Tom Holman of THX fame.

 

[Hipper]

Buying speakers was often about measurements although I'm not sure how seriously these were taken by buyers. After Harman/Toole and others, and now Amir on here, measurements are here again. I would think all speaker designers employ measurements to varying degrees to develop their speakers but there seem so many solutions - passive or active crossovers, active speakers, ribbons, electrostats etc.. Sticking to one type of measurements such as Harman's seem to not work so well for some types of speakers - electrostats for example - and yet many people like them. Ultimately when I bring a speaker home it is difficult to predict that it will suit me and my location and that's why speaker measurements can only be a guide. Buying speakers still seems to be about personal circumstances and taste. For example do you want a direct sound with little in the way of reflections (nearfield) or would you prefer reflections and therefore quite a wide dispersion?

On the other hand my general impression is that electronic boxes - sources, DACs, amps etc. - can be measured with some consistency and therefore for well measured boxes you can look at other factors such as connectivity, robustness, manufacturer's support.

If I was starting from scratch again I would first identify the sources I will use. That in itself is quite difficult as there have been considerable changes from the principle of owning media (vinyl, CDs) to computer audio and streaming. For example, using computer audio you could use software for DSP/EQ whereas if you use CDs say, as I do, you will need some box to implement this.

After that the most important thing are speakers. They not only need to fit your tastes but work in your room. The combination of room and its contents has a big effect on the sound you hear and that's why many on here consider room treatment (bass traps etc.) and DSP/EQ essential as well as perhaps multiple subwoofers. In order to get this right you will ideally need to measure your in room responses using software or boxes and microphone to get positioning of speakers and listening chair the best you can, apply room treatment (and perhaps place subwoofers), and then add filters to your DSP/EQ.

Once you've decided on speakers, you need to find an amp that gets the best out of them and then the rest of the gear as needed.

You may then consider things like anti-vibration devices (feet, platforms) and power supply, although many on here say these have no effect as there's little science to prove anything.

 

[BDWoody]

After many years away from the hobby, I'm attempting to re-enter in retirement. A kind member here has answered a bunch of my back-channel questions. However, I don't want to continue to bug him, and some of what I'm still curious about may be worth an open discussion. To keep it brief, I'll just ask the questions:

1. Does measurement-based, science-oriented, Toole-approved audio mean that we no longer buy because others said an item "sounds good?" Dealers once gave advice & a demo. Trusted friends with similar sound quality tastes filled the gaps when the dealers were gone. How do we find the items that have been verified as "not bringing a sound into" our audio systems?

2. Does any manufacturer besides Harman follow Toole's suggested measurements & tell us they do? Are there any other "measurement-oriented" suppliers of speakers besides the JBL, Revel, etc., group?

3. Decades back I had "highly recommended" systems costing many thousands of dollars, but connected them with cheap interconnects and zip cord for speaker wire. I don't recall a single time that my decisions were made around science. All of it was "perceived sound." I didn't like it then, but I'm eager to apply this new approach to a search for a $1000-$6000 entry system that doesn't add anything to the sound of the recording. Paraphrasing Toole, I'd like to leave the art to the artists & recording engineers, and let the system/components be based on science & measurements. Any tips on making this happen?

I like this place & what I've read thus far. Thanks to each of you.
[disclaimer: I'm a noob here & have been searching & reading, but if this is the wrong kind of question, or belongs elsewhere, I'll let a moderator move or delete it.]

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your retirement!

Rather than give any gear advice at this point, I'd just suggest you settle in with all that new time on your hands, and spend a day or two reading on the forum...

You will likely come to the conclusion many of us have, which is that focusing on competent engineering is critical in creating a clean signal path, and competent engineering can be identified through testing and measurement. If a DAC, cables, etc., are competent for the job, they should simply disappear into the background.

It's when you get to the speaker/room system that it becomes much more difficult to make it so simple...

How big is your listening area? Are you only interested in stereo, or are you also interested in multichannel/theater use?

You should be able to put together something you will be very happy with in your budget...

Feel free to stsrt new threads with questions...it is a pretty helpful group.

 

[Ilkless]

After many years away from the hobby, I'm attempting to re-enter in retirement. A kind member here has answered a bunch of my back-channel questions. However, I don't want to continue to bug him, and some of what I'm still curious about may be worth an open discussion. To keep it brief, I'll just ask the questions:

1. Does measurement-based, science-oriented, Toole-approved audio mean that we no longer buy because others said an item "sounds good?" Dealers once gave advice & a demo. Trusted friends with similar sound quality tastes filled the gaps when the dealers were gone. How do we find the items that have been verified as "not bringing a sound into" our audio systems?

2. Does any manufacturer besides Harman follow Toole's suggested measurements & tell us they do? Are there any other "measurement-oriented" suppliers of speakers besides the JBL, Revel, etc., group?

3. Decades back I had "highly recommended" systems costing many thousands of dollars, but connected them with cheap interconnects and zip cord for speaker wire. I don't recall a single time that my decisions were made around science. All of it was "perceived sound." I didn't like it then, but I'm eager to apply this new approach to a search for a $1000-$6000 entry system that doesn't add anything to the sound of the recording. Paraphrasing Toole, I'd like to leave the art to the artists & recording engineers, and let the system/components be based on science & measurements. Any tips on making this happen?

I like this place & what I've read thus far. Thanks to each of you.
[disclaimer: I'm a noob here & have been searching & reading, but if this is the wrong kind of question, or belongs elsewhere, I'll let a moderator move or delete it.]

Hope this thread helps clarify the ideas somewhat. As that thread suggests, there are many ways for a speaker to be consistent with the research, and all sound different. For one thing, consistent dispersion is unambiguously good horizontally (and a lot of overhyped legacy brands - eg. Harbeth - fail even on that front). But there is wiggle room for the width of the consistent dispersion, which varies with listening distance, room size, sweet spot size desired and so on. Also, the value of consistent vertical dispersion is more contested (especially since it may entail other compromises that may or may not outweigh its value). With differences based on speaker size, loudness, sweet spot size and bass extension requirements, the speaker configuration can differ significantly. Speakers can all sound different but be evidence-based.

 

[6sigma]

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your retirement!

How big is your listening area? Are you only interested in stereo, or are you also interested in multichannel/theater use?

Thanks for replying. The room is 16.5' x 25'. I'm interested in a stereo system only. The system will not be used for TV/movie viewing. As for sources, I have all of my CDs ripped to FLAC files. At my age I cannot hear the differences (usually) between a FLAC file and a 320Kbps mp3 file, so streaming is definitely a convenience I'll be looking for. Specifically, the lion's share of my budget will go toward amplification, DAC and/or preamp and speakers.

Again, many thanks.

 

[Neddy]

Good luck applying your PM/6Sigma skills to audio!!

& Welcome! - retiring from decades of PM (IT) work was like waking to a entire New Life for me, and turned out to be great timing for once again tearing into the Audio Chase, as superbly great gear has never been so affordable, and ASR is a freakin' godsend!

1. The most important, and toughest, choice will be speakers, and that alone will give you almost too much to think about (and budget for).
One thing I will say based on my experience is do not make speaker purchasing decisions based on other comments alone - I've been astounded several times recently at how 'bad' some highly touted speakers (admittedly inexpensive) were, and conversely how amazingly good others (DIY M2s, in my case) were!

2. The next thing I can say from my experience is that DACs that measure in the top tier are definitely worth it...and are no longer a significant cost obstacle (though feature sets now present other dilemmas, so being clear on your 'use case requirements' will be important.

3. Familiarize yourself with Room/EQ choices/technologies - I've found that to be the 'icing on the cake'.

4. WRT to speakers - try to decide early on whether your musical tastes would benefit from really deep bass (ie, subwoofer/s) as that might affect your main speaker selections.
I happened to have started out by adding a large pro subwoofer, and tho I eventually upgraded to main speakers with as good deep bass (20hz), I do not regret having the 'beastly sub', esp for classical/organ/and electronic music , as it provides a substantial 'power kick'!
(I've also noticed that really good super deep bass started getting much more common in 'recent' (>2000s) recordings.)
If I were to do it over again, I'd probably investigate a small 'swarm' of active motional feedback subs, though the added cost over what I have would be prohibitive.

5. Try to find/hook up with others with similar tastes (musical and technical) in your area, and go listen to their stuff!

6. Enjoy! - there has never been a better time to chase high end audio than Now!! (Or better access to new musical discoveries!).

 

[6sigma]

Thanks again to all who replied. Good suggestions & more to dig into.

FYI: getting very close to building a couple of nc400 monoblocks after a bit more speaker research.

 

[Snarfie]

I'm more or less retired too for some years. After visiting ASR an some other forums it was room correction software that changed my system for atleast 70% for the better. In 50 years time i never experienced such gain in music clarity/staging balance etc. So atleast inform your self what room correction can do for you is my suggestion.

 

[LTig]

Thanks again to all who replied. Good suggestions & more to dig into.

FYI: getting very close to building a couple of nc400 monoblocks after a bit more speaker research.

Before venturing into this you should look hard whether a setup with active speakers is not the better choice. WRT price/performance good active systems usually beat passive systems, and often by a wide margin (speaking of Genelec, Neumann, ...).

 

[6sigma]

Before venturing into this you should look hard whether a setup with active speakers is not the better choice. WRT price/performance good active systems usually beat passive systems, and often by a wide margin (speaking of Genelec, Neumann, ...).

Interesting. Those are names that haven't crossed my radar & the active speaker as a high-performance choice in home audio is something I'm unfamiliar with. I'll explore those options before ordering the amp kits. Thanks.

 

[JeffS7444]

Bear in mind that much of the test results you see are revealing anomalies which may be several orders of magnitude below audibility. And while alleged audiophile products which test poorly may be deserving of mockery, with something like a cinema receiver, it may be a logical cost reduction measure. And so long as distortion remains somewhere below 1%, and nothing too strange is happening with the frequency response, the product may still be sonically transparent.

Before purchasing a power amplifier, realize that some of the most interesting speaker options may either have built-in amplifiers or may require 4 or more channels of amplification (Linkwitz LX-Mini, LX521 et al)

 

[BDWoody]

Interesting. Those are names that haven't crossed my radar & the active speaker as a high-performance choice in home audio is something I'm unfamiliar with. I'll explore those options before ordering the amp kits. Thanks.

I'll second this option...

I have been using JBL 708p's and 705p's (after picking them up as B stock for roughly half price), and have been very impressed. Analog and Digital in, internal DSP options, 2x250w amps per speaker, etc.

The Dutch and Dutch 8c is another one that's been well reviewed... Might be a little above your price range, but never hurts to add more data points.

Cheers...enjoy the search.

 

[Svperstar]

Back in 2007 or so I decided to stop reading about headphone stuff and "retire" from it. I was listening on Soundcard -> Gilmore Lite -> Sennheiser HD580.

In 2015 I decided to get back into it when my gear was either sold or starting to fall apart.

These days I listen on DAC -> Gilmore Lite mk2 -> (mostly) Sennheiser HD580 replacement pair.

lol

 

[Wes]

Thanks for replying. The room is 16.5' x 25'. I'm interested in a stereo system only. The system will not be used for TV/movie viewing. As for sources, I have all of my CDs ripped to FLAC files. At my age I cannot here the differences (usually) between a FLAC file and a 320Kbps mp3 file, so streaming is definitely a convenience I'll be looking for. Specifically, the lion's share of my budget will go toward amplification, DAC and/or preamp and speakers.

Again, many thanks.

How about some Maggies?

 

[Apesbrain]

If I were starting over with a clean slate, I'd follow the trend in my current system toward simplification. With all your files on your network and streaming next in terms of interest, I'd suggest a single component of the sort represented by the NAD M10 (below) or C 338. If you can swing it with your remaining budget, the Revel speakers are very well regarded. PSB Speakers -- a sister company to NAD -- offers less expensive options and I believe they are also an adherent to the Toole school.

 

[vitalii427]

The room is 16.5' x 25'.

Wow, it is about my perfect room size!

 

[6sigma]

How about some Maggies?

They are definitely on my list. One of the most enjoyable systems I ever owned was built around Magnepan speakers 40 years ago!