Back into audio after retiring...(tl;dr Help!)

[Daverz]

Magnepan is a good example of one of the worst measuring popular speakers out there.

 

[6sigma]

Magnepan is a good example of one of the worst measuring popular speakers out there.

Is that because of the challenges of measuring a dipole or are there flaws in the design & implementation? I'm not questioning your statement at all, but how can I learn more about how this was determined?

 

[Daverz]

Is that because of the challenges of measuring a dipole or are there flaws in the design & implementation? I'm not questioning your statement at all, but how can I learn more about how this was determined?

I just googled Magnepan measurements.

I'd buy the dipole excuse if there were published measurements showing good anechoic response on and off axis.

 

[Doodski]

I just googled Magnepan measurements.

I'd buy the dipole excuse if there were published measurements showing good anechoic response on and off axis.

I would be inclined to want to test drive a set of Maggies in home with a suitable amplifier before committing. I suspect the amplifier would need to be monstrous and expensive taking up a large part of the budget along with the large expense of the Maggies. Not sure that would leave you enough budget for the other stuff. Again it all comes back to the size of your room. How high are your ceilings?

 

[6sigma]

I would be inclined to want to test drive a set of Maggies in home with a suitable amplifier before committing. I suspect the amplifier would need to be monstrous and expensive taking up a large part of the budget along with the large expense of the Maggies. Not sure that would leave you enough budget for the other stuff. Again it all comes back to the size of your room. How high are your ceilings?

In that room we have 10 foot ceilings. Placement of the Maggies will be a challenge, but once the spot is found, the LRS, .7 or 1.7 may be easy enough to move if necessary. I'll have to give some thought to how we might handle that. As for the amp(s) for Maggies, I haven't even begun to dig into that. "The wisdom" once said that Maggies required high current amplifiers. When dealers demo'd gear, I simply trusted their recommended matches. I have no idea whether any of that was based on measurement and fact.

 

[Doodski]

When dealers demo'd gear, I simply trusted their recommended matches. I have no idea whether any of that was based on measurement and fact.

Therein lies the crux of this. What is available to you at your local dealer or even online if you where to purchase that way. It's nice having after sales support and purchasing locally. Due to your room dimensions requirements and the possible lack of retailer supplied appropriately sized speakers it might even be advantageous to peek about at the used market to see if you can pick up a set of quality large speakers. Many owners baby their gear and keep it in tip top condition. Some prefer buying as new but used can be a viable option and sometimes surprising with what is available. Options options...

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think DaverZ is referring to this result from Stereophile for an LRS.

Off axis isn't very good either. I've found other Maggies super touchy about being toed in just right, and this would explain that.
Both of these graphs are examples of what you don't want from a loudspeaker.

Here are the same measures for the MG20 Maggie.

Again not good on FR, and not good for smooth off-axis results.

 

[Blumlein 88]

In that room we have 10 foot ceilings. Placement of the Maggies will be a challenge, but once the spot is found, the LRS, .7 or 1.7 may be easy enough to move if necessary. I'll have to give some thought to how we might handle that. As for the amp(s) for Maggies, I haven't even begun to dig into that. "The wisdom" once said that Maggies required high current amplifiers. When dealers demo'd gear, I simply trusted their recommended matches. I have no idea whether any of that was based on measurement and fact.

Maggies are a 4 ohm load, but it is a relatively benign 4 ohm load. So they need a bit of power and current, but aren't really extremely demanding in such terms. Any of the good Hypex amps would do fine with them.

 

[Doodski]

Maggies are a 4 ohm load, but it is a relatively benign 4 ohm load. So they need a bit of power and current, but aren't really extremely demanding in such terms. Any of the good Hypex amps would do fine with them.

The room is 16.5' x 25' x 10' high. Do you think Maggies can fill a room of this size at louder volumes and be versatile enough for a eclectic variety of music?

 

[Rick Sykora]

Congrats on retirement and welcome to the forum!

See you are catching up on your audio research. One thing has not changed in decades - speakers remain the differentiator and still the most subjective component. As it appears you are technical enough to build an amplifier, suggest you look at some of the forward progress in speaker design - DIY too. Suggest you check out linkwitzlab.com and Don Keele’s CBT work.

If most of your listening is music with family and friends, you would be remiss to not consider these designers work.

Happy hunting .

 

[Blumlein 88]

The room is 16.5' x 25' x 10' high. Do you think Maggies can fill a room of this size at louder volumes and be versatile enough for a eclectic variety of music?

I doubt the small LRS can. Some of the larger models yes.

My suggestion would be some of the similarly priced Revels. Performa 3 F208. Notice a difference vs the Maggies?

The Revels measure similar to each other. You can get F206s or F35 or F36 at lower prices or 2nd hand F32s.

 

[6sigma]

Congrats on retirement and welcome to the forum!

See you are catching up on your audio research. On thing has not changed in decades - speakers remain the differentiator and still the most subjective component. As it appears you are technical enough to build an amplifier, suggest you look at some of the forward progress in speaker design - DIY too. Suggest you check out linkwitzlab.com and Don Keele’s CBT work.

If most of your listening is music with family and friends, you would be remiss to not consider these designers work.

Happy hunting .

Thanks. These last few days have been like drinking from a fire hose, but really enjoyable. I appreciate the pointers to DIY speakers. While I'm eager, at my age, I'd rather not make too many false starts on this new system. Over the next week or two I plan to enhance/enlarge the budget and get a grip on some of the new options available. The speakers will definitely need the most deliberation!

 

[6sigma]

I doubt the small LRS can. Some of the larger models yes.

My suggestion would be some of the similarly priced Revels. Performa 3 F208. Notice a difference vs the Maggies?

The Revels measure similar to each other. You can get F206s or F35 or F36 at lower prices or 2nd hand F32s.

The more I read Toole and study the Revel line, the more impressed I am. I need to get to a dealer soon and listen to several pairs of these! Thanks for the (continued) help!

 

[Sancus]

Magnepan is a good example of one of the worst measuring popular speakers out there.

As someone who's owned Magnepans for many years(1.7, eventually upgraded to 1.7i at a price when one started to delaminate and had to be sent in for repair) I can say:

• They do create a pleasant ambience due to the dipole effect and their uneven but wide horizontal dispersion. Although it's important to note that you only get the really really wide dispersion at the 3.7+ level. LRS and 1.7 don't have it in the lows and midrange.
• No matter what you do, they don't sound accurate when compared to even a cheap studio monitor.
• They have major bass issues due to comb filtering from the dipole wave reflecting off the back wall, ideal placement is probably 4 or 5 feet into the room and that's impossible for many people.

Some measurements:

Spoiler

Magnepan 1.7i vs Neumann KH80, 0.9m from back wall, no room EQ. Mic distance ~1.5 m.

Magnepan 1.7i + SVS SB12 Sub with Audyssey XT32 enabled, vs Pure Direct(no sub, no room EQ).

So as you can see, room eq does help them out, but they're still leagues away from an accurate speaker under pretty much any conditions. Indeed, I bought them on the advice of a dealer, when I didn't know any better, after only comparing a few other pairs of speakers.

Nowadays, I think if you want that room-filling ambience surrounding you, multi-channel is the better way to get it. And then you can turn it off when you don't want it, which is certainly the case for some types of music. Also, real multi-channel music itself is an incredible experience.

 

[MattHooper]

***pssst....6sigama...Don't be put off Harbeth by the jabs already taken at the brand early in the thread. There are those who just don't think their design approach is "right", but there are a lot of Harbeth lovers, for good reason. They can sound wonderful! For instance the Harbeth SuperHL5plus can put out some excellent measurements - an Aussie magazine stated they were the most linear measurements from bottom to top they'd ever encountered JA of Stereophile in his measurements of that speaker said, aside from the lively cabinet which is a deliberate part of the design "the Harbeth Super HL5plus's measured performance is beyond reproach." I owned them and they sounded superb! Clear and beautifully balanced from top to bottom. Not that you will necessarily like them, and you can get superb performance for less. Just adding some counterpoint. You'll note that even among the measurement oriented members there will be debates about the merits of various speaker design choices with some strong opinions on different sides. The Floyd Toole work, though, is generally highly regarded here, for good reason too.

 

[6sigma]

***pssst....6sigma...Don't be put off Harbeth...You'll note that even among the measurement oriented members there will be debates about the merits of various speaker design choices with some strong opinions on different sides. The Floyd Toole work, though, is generally highly regarded here, for good reason too.

Sound advice. As I've become more acquainted with the viewpoints here, I've become more comfortable that many folks here advocate for Toole's approach, but they are not promoting only Harman brands. In the end I suspect each of us wants to listen to our various audio systems/choices and lose ourselves in the music. Just my opinion.

 

[GD Fan]

You're already well ahead of the game having found this site before forking out for new equipment. I did it the other way round and, while I love the system I built, I'd no doubt have done many things differently had I first discovered the shared wisdom and experience of the membership here.

So I may have little place offering input but the one thing I wish I'd done was read and research about 10x the amount I did before committing. Now that I have, the upgrade impulse keeps itching...

And on the subwoofer question, even if you aren't initially inclined you may want to consider reserving some budget for it nonetheless. Subs can really enhance all music when properly integrated.

 

[6sigma]

You're already well ahead of the game having found this site before forking out for new equipment. I did it the other way round and, while I love the system I built, I'd no doubt have done many things differently had I first discovered the shared wisdom and experience of the membership here.

So I may have little place offering input but the one thing I wish I'd done was read and research about 10x the amount I did before committing. Now that I have, the upgrade impulse keeps itching...

And on the subwoofer question, even if you aren't initially inclined you may want to consider reserving some budget for it nonetheless. Subs can really enhance all music when properly integrated.

One of the few measurements that I recall from yesteryear was the one that determined whether a system was really delivering down to 20Hz or only to 40, 50 or 60Hz. With recordings that contain the information, a system that doesn't reproduce it can be disappointing. As with other aspects of the technology, I suspect integrating subs has become more science than art. I'll learn more as I go. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[GD Fan]

One of the few measurements that I recall from yesteryear was the one that determined whether a system was really delivering down to 20Hz or only to 40, 50 or 60Hz. With recordings that contain the information, a system that doesn't reproduce it can be disappointing. As with other aspects of the technology, I suspect integrating subs has become more science than art. I'll learn more as I go. Thanks for the reminder!

There are some good options out there for subwoofers these days, from servo to app-based integration modules. Sadly my space constraint didn't allow any such niceties, but once I got the thing properly tuned and integrated it was like the full potential of my speakers had finally been achieved!

 

[Wes]

with a $6k system budget, maybe the question is what is the best active speaker for $5k...