Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[solderdude]

What do you mean by active? I presume they were disconnected for that test?

I assume they are not. When measuring the tweeter the midrange will also be active. The fact that the mic is just cm's away from the speaker in question is the only option in this case which does not capture the full driver and captures some of the adjacent drivers as well (around the XO)

One option might be to short the inputs of the drive units that are not being measured, so their motion is damped.

That will change the load the XO will bring to the amp, just as disconnecting a driver might change the load to the amp.

 

[Sokel]

This one:
View attachment 363886

Revel F206 Tower Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ, and detailed measurements of the Revel F206 Floor-standing speaker. It is on kind loan from a member (new) and costs US $1347.50 each. Please excuse the mobile phone picture quality and plastics that are still on the speaker. I try to keep products as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

By the chart above only I would rule out this speaker immediately by the pronounced 3-4Khz region alone,the same with FR.not my taste at all.
But estimated in room response seems to come to rescue as it can be seeing the other way around,as a dip a little lower.

That's why listening is crucial in speakers,in our own room ideally (on the other hand the speakers I didn't like in other rooms I also didn't like in mine,but that can also be a coincident or the "first impression" thing )

 

[Beave]

Are you suggesting that the mid range driver output is tweeter leakage? If that was the case, the leakage would be more likely to occur at the tweeter's system resonance, which is inside the mid-range pass band.

Yes, just as I suggested in that very thread, I am suggesting that.

Why would it be more likely to occur at the tweeter's system resonance? That makes no sense to me. The tweeter has a highpass filter on it.

 

[Beave]

What do you mean by active? I presume they were disconnected for that test?

One option might be to short the inputs of the drive units that are not being measured, so their motion is damped.

Yes, ideally for these measurements, the other drivers not being close-mic'd would be disconnected completely so their output wouldn't corrupt the measurements.

But they're not disconnected, and their outputs DO corrupt the measurements. That's my entire point.

Yes, it would be great for Amir to short the inputs the the other drivers for these measurements, but that's not a realistic request. It would require opening up the speaker and re-wiring for each test. It would be quite time consuming.

 

[Beave]

By the chart above only I would rule out this speaker immediately by the pronounced 3-4Khz region alone,the same with FR.not my taste at all.
But estimated in room response seems to come to rescue as it can be seeing the other way around,as a dip a little lower.

That's why listening is crucial in speakers,in our own room ideally (on the other hand the speakers I didn't like in other rooms I also didn't like in mine,but that can also be a coincident or the "first impression" thing )

I doubt that "pronounced" 3-4kHz bump is nearly as audible as you might think. It's mostly diminished in the listening window and not apparent at all in the predicted in room response.

All of this has been hashed out in the appropriate Revel thread. Please post there, not here, for further discussion.

I will ask the mods to move these last few posts to that thread.

 

[welwynnick]

But you've already been given many many reasons why you might not have.

Starting with subconscious perceptive biases, through all the room effects, and (less likely) them not matching your subjective preference. Unfortunately if you want a final answer of which of these are at play, the only way is to conduct a series of blind tests to find out. This is impractical, so you'll just have to accept not knowing which of the many possibilities it is, because without valid testing of your perception, everything is pure speculation.

I could only account for subconscious bias by blind listening, and I'm not aware that anyone does that in a shop. I can't think of any reason why I would have subconscious bias against the Revels - I had pretty much decided to buy them before I went to the shop, not even knowing whether I'd be able to listen before buying.

If anything my bias was against the KEFs that we also heard. They're too big, too expensive, and I disliked KEFs the last time I auditioned some, and bought my current speakers instead. KEFs have a reputation for being bland and easy listening. Amir said of them: "the stock tuning is designed to not remotely offend", which I was mindful of at the time. So if there was any bias, it was against them.

The only other option would be to buy them, take them home, and get someone to blind test me. Like that's going to happen. The problem will still remain that, at home, I never listen to music blind - that is not just unsighted, but actually not knowing what I'm listening to. Whenever I listen to speakers, I'm always going to be looking at them, so if there is indeed any subconscious bias, then that HAS to be part of the choice.

 

[Sokel]

I doubt that "pronounced" 3-4kHz bump is nearly as audible as you might think. It's mostly diminished in the listening window and not apparent at all in the predicted in room response.

All of this has been hashed out in the appropriate Revel thread. Please post there, not here, for further discussion.

I will ask the mods to move these last few posts to that thread.

Regardless of this specific speaker,every speaker with pronounced highs at around 3-4Khz to 8Khz or thin sounding (no midbass) gives me a round headache,it's not about audibility,it's physical.
Agreed about the thread even if it's the other way around,most of the times OT ends up here

 

[Purité Audio]

Nick what are you current speakers , if you don’t mind me asking?
Keith

 

[welwynnick]

Currently using Acoustic Energy Aegis 3, though I have lots of other speakers including Meridian and Anthony Gallo. Personal favourites are Final electrostatics (though not reliable ).

 

[Purité Audio]

I am still extremely fond of early Meridian speakers, M2s M10s, I am not familiar with acoustic energy or ‘final’ for that matter.
Keith

 

[welwynnick]

I heard Meridian M2s at my first university audio society meeting, and they made quite an impression; I remember it very well. That was supported by a local audio dealer in Gatehead, and they got a lot of our business. I used to have DSP6000(24 bit) which were very impressive at first, but didn't last the course. I should probably have renewed the tweeters by all accounts. Final speakers sound a bit like Audiostatics, rather than Martin Logans, Acoustats etc.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I think the scope of the post by @Newman here might be under-appreciated. Please allow me to explain.

I firmly believe that people's minds can make a snap decision to like or dislike a thing, person or idea when they are initially exposed to that person, thing or idea. This decision can be based on stereotypes, can be based on previous experiences, can be based on hearsay or can be what we would consider illogical. In addition, this snap decision can be totally unconscious, and as such is not at all able to be controlled or dismissed. After all, how can you control or dismiss something that you do not know exists?

What I'm saying here is that your conscious mind might say things like, "Let's see whether I like these things", or, "I know nothing about these things", or even, "Gee, I think I like these things" ... and all the while you unconscious mind has already made a decision to DIS-like them based on a process undetectable and uncontrollable by you.

That unconscious decision is extremely powerful, all the more because the person in question may not believe that such a process exists.

I had a conversation some years ago with a person cognizant in human perception. They told me that in reflex reactions, the unconscious brain 1) identifies a threat, 2) assesses the scope of the threat, 3) calculates the necessary counteraction, 4) accepts possible damage, and 5) initiates muscle reaction ALL BEFORE THE CONSCIOUS MIND PERCEIVES THE THREAT.

I didn't believe him, but I looked into the matter, and he seemed to be quite correct. The abilities of the unconscious mind, the scope of those abilities and the degree of disconnect that it has with the conscious mind are ... well, mind-boggling.

This process continues every hour of every day, both when we are awake and when we sleep, for all of our (adult?) life.

To put it succinctly: we are slaves to our unconscious minds to a (varying) degree that we can neither apprehend nor appreciate ... and definitely not consciously control. That's why we need to depend on tests and measurements.

Jim

p.s. - I, too, have a pair of the Aegis 3 speakers. Small world, isn't it?

 

[antcollinet]

I can't think of any reason why I would have subconscious bias against the Revels

That is not how subconcious bias works. Think of it more like biasing a transistor - shifting the response point - rather than prejudice.

The only other option would be to buy them, take them home, and get someone to blind test me. Like that's going to happen.

As I recognised in my reply, where I said:

This is impractical, so you'll just have to accept not knowing which of the many possibilities it is

 

[welwynnick]

I think the scope of the post by @Newman here might be under-appreciated. Please allow me to explain.

That is not how subconcious bias works. Think of it more like biasing a transistor - shifting the response point - rather than prejudice.

Yes I know, but the subconscious bias has to come from somewhere. If not price or performance or quality or looks, perhaps I was hoping for some credibility from you lot?

I have to say that too much importance is placed on subconscious bias - it will still affect me every time I play music - long after the buying decision is made.

The objective performance won't matter if the wet stuff isn't happy. Music should be about enjoyment and entertainment. I don't buy speakers just because they have a flat frequency response. That's just one of a number of indicators to point me in the right direction.

Should I ignore what I hear in the shop and buy a pair of speakers that I don't like listening to?

Should I get the FR charts out every time I play some music and just stare at them while congratulating myself on my objective decision-making?

 

[Purité Audio]

It is ok not to like a pair of loudspeakers.
Also if you are used to a particular sound then something new…
I would still advise using measurements to pick a set of ‘possibles’ and then actually try to listen to them ideally in your own room.
Keith

 

[antcollinet]

Should I ignore what I hear in the shop and buy a pair of speakers that I don't like listening to?

Where did anyone say that?

You said "I'm struggling to understand why I didn't." (like it)

I gave you a list of reasons why that might be (that others had already given you) - one of which is bias.


That is all.

 

[welwynnick]

Where did anyone say that?

None expressly, but with a few notable exceptions, there were some carefully worded responses suggesting my subjective conclusions couldn't be relied on, or that I should place more trust in the measurements.

the adjectives you've used don't remotely align with my impressions of them

It sounds like something may have been askew downstream of the speakers

I don’t find the sound as you describe,

Possibly the speakers both weren't setup optimally

the speakers themself are great - give them some EQ and they shine in most rooms

I would think it's really quite rare that you can listen to demos of properly setup speakers, so the way I see it it's more effective to buy based on measurements

Could also be the room

Without a way to verify your claims, and considering the information provided, it seems likely that there is a critical piece missing

Maybe ear position relative to the speakers is not right for you when you demo the speakers

Who knows - perhaps it was the room treatment you didn't like.

This is why measurements are especially important for speakers.

I am re-emphasising this because it is semi-automatic to give credence to sighted listening impressions as being caused by sonic factors

You are conveniently neglecting all of the discussion in that thread that calls that measurement into question

the only way is to conduct a series of blind tests to find out

I doubt that "pronounced" 3-4kHz bump is nearly as audible as you might think

we are slaves to our unconscious minds to a (varying) degree that we cannot apprehend nor appreciate ... and definitely not consciously control. That's why we need to depend on tests and measurements

On Thursday I rashly pre-empted my visit to the shop by saying that I was going to buy them, and I even defended the F206 against DSJR's comment, and if Amir and Sean Olive say they're good, that's enough for me. The performance is great, the price is great, they look great and the WAF is great, so the conscious bias in their favour was over-whelming, so surely that alone should have overcome any listening impressions. If there is any sub-conscious bias, there has to be a cause, it has to come from somewhere. But there is nothing. Perhaps it originates from a nasty experience from my childhood?

The worst thing that happened to me in my "HiFi Career" was not being able to hear the difference between player and processor decoding when I was absolutely convinced I would.

 

[sonitus mirus]

None expressly, but with a few notable exceptions, there were some carefully worded responses suggesting my subjective conclusions couldn't be relied on, or that I should place more trust in the measurements.
















On Thursday I rashly pre-empted my visit to the shop by saying that I was going to buy them, and I even defended the F206 against DSJR's comment, and if Amir and Sean Olive say they're good, that's enough for me. The performance is great, the price is great, they look great and the WAF is great, so the conscious bias in their favour was over-whelming, so surely that alone should have overcome any listening impressions. If there is any sub-conscious bias, there has to be a cause, it has to come from somewhere. But there is nothing. Perhaps it originates from a nasty experience from my childhood?

The worst thing that happened to me in my "HiFi Career" was not being able to hear the difference between player and processor decoding when I was absolutely convinced I would.

By its very nature, implicit bias can persist despite conscious reasoning due to a complex blend of past experiences, emotional reactions, social influences, and ingrained thought patterns. You can certainly trust your subjective experience, but I certainly can't.

 

[DonR]

There is no free will so unburden yourself of the heaviness of your decision.

 

[welwynnick]

By its very nature, implicit bias can persist despite conscious reasoning due to a complex blend of past experiences, emotional reactions, social influences, and ingrained thought patterns.

OK, but is it really likely to overcome overwhelming conscious bias?