Legal fund for Reviewers/Erin?

[kemmler3D]

Did anyone read Atkinson's somewhat passive-aggressive comment, which is in the discussion beneath the SP Moab review?

He writes: "... a 1990s Supreme Court opinion held that an opinion expressed by a recognized authority on a subject might not necessarily have First Amendment protection, the authority of the opinion-expresser causing that opinion to be taken as fact."

To see his comment properly formatted on SP, please go to: https://www.stereophile.com/comment/616223#comment-616223

I have attempted to paste it in below, in a quote box:

So, two things.

First of all, I can't find the 1990s case he's referring to, but I did find this article which seems to discuss the topic. Only professional "speech" (e.g. investment, medical, or legal advice) seems to be implicated. So if Erin were an A/V installer and recommended the wrong speakers, maybe there would be a concept of liability there. However, this article seems to indicate that such speech has become less, not more, restricted over time. NAL but maybe @PatentLawyer is familiar with some of the citations here...

Second of all, am I to understand that JA is actually willing to entertain the idea that publishing measurements of a speaker might constitute professional malpractice or something like defamation?? Wouldn't that put stereophile on the hook as well? WTF?

 

[Timcognito]

Our Kind.

 

[napfkuchen]

Just today I got an email at work about a lawsuit filed by one of my favorite "customers" and it made me think about Eric's behavior. As usual, the text contained long explanations about my incompetence and was peppered with a few subtle insults, but the factual arguments in both the email and the lawsuit were without substance.
In the last case, after the opening of the oral hearing, the judge dismissed the lawsuit directly with reference to my written statement of defense without listening to the arguments of the plaintiff's lawyer.
I think that the potential plaintiff is also reading this thread and has now come to the realization that it is better not to escalate the matter any further.

 

[voodooless]

@voodooless Do you have a paid subscription for Copilot?

No, I’m using the free version.

I do and it states:

Potential Legal Consequences: If a professional reviewer’s opinion is taken as fact due to their authority, and it turns out to be false or misleading, they could potentially face legal consequences. This is especially true if their review causes financial harm to consumers or businesses.

That’s not the a reference to the court case, is it…? As far as this kind of information goes from Copilot, I’d trust it as far as I can throw a boulder.

 

[kemmler3D]

I want to clarify a few things that make this offer so much more commendable than what may be seen on the surface. Some of you may already be aware to some extent. That Amir and Erin have had their differences and a bit of a track record, not all positive. Without belaboring the point and rehashing the past. Amir and Erin decided to part ways for reasons that are not germaine to the point I wish to make.

Just understand that the two are (or weren’t) on speaking terms and had a “fall out” over principals. I wouldn’t say that they were enemies, but they also were not best buds. Kinda like Exes who went their separate ways. This fact places Amir’s act of incredible generosity and compassion for a fellow independent Audio Reviewer in a different light. He just dropped a $10,000 dollar primer fund to show Erin that he is not alone and that a Brotherhood exists that will be there for him in this hour of dire need. A day before this and they were not on speaking terms!

Today I am proud member of the ASR family. I am awestruck by Amir’s act. Amir, you have demonstrated a remarkable quality of humanity and integrity that is so rare in this industry. If you ever wondered why Brad and I do this thankless volunteer job year after year. Look no further than this action. Acts like this are the gas in the tank. Amir gives a crap about the ever shrinking number of Independent Audio Reviewers who do this work that we all benefit greatly from. Imagine for a moment that no independent audio reviewers existed. That the only product reviews you could find were Infomercials at best and outright Marketing at worst. That would be a terrible situation and all of us would be at the mercy of the multitudes of Sales and Marketing professionals who make a living trying to get us to spend as much money as possible and delivering us the bare minimum for that investment. So yeah. Amir’s actions are remarkable, commendable, and honorable. He put his money where his mouth is. This is talking the talk, and walking the walk. Thank you Amir. Thank you for showing that there are still principled and honorable people in this industry. You have earned my respect and commitment to your Mission of ASR.

Well said. A good example of maturity and commitment to principles in action, something we see all too rarely these days!

 

[voodooless]

First of all, I can't find the 1990s case he's referring to, but I did find this article which seems to discuss the topic. Only professional "speech" (e.g. investment, medical, or legal advice) seems to be implicated. So if Erin were an A/V installer and recommended the wrong speakers, maybe there would be a concept of liability there. However, this article seems to indicate that such speech has become less, not more, restricted over time.

Does it? From the summary (by Copilot) it seems not the case:

Sherman points out that despite the increasing frequency of occupational speech being licensed, the Supreme Court has largely remained silent on the issue. This silence has led some lower courts to conclude that occupational speech is not entitled to meaningful constitutional protection, a stance that Sherman opposes.

He advocates that occupational speech, even when it involves giving expert advice, is a form of expression that should be protected under the First Amendment. The article suggests that the Supreme Court’s recent case law supports this view, particularly referencing Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project and United States v. Stevens.

Now obviously Copilot could be wrong here, that would not al all be surprising.

 

[kemmler3D]

Does it? From the summary (by Copilot) it seems not the case:

Now obviously Copilot could be wrong here, that would not al all be surprising.

I think I agree with the second bit from copilot... this author's opinion is that recent precedent points to less restricted professional speech. Not being a lawyer I'm not well-equipped to evaluate the quality of that argument, but it seems plausible enough to me.

 

[rdenney]

So, two things.

First of all, I can't find the 1990s case he's referring to, but I did find this article which seems to discuss the topic. Only professional "speech" (e.g. investment, medical, or legal advice) seems to be implicated. So if Erin were an A/V installer and recommended the wrong speakers, maybe there would be a concept of liability there. However, this article seems to indicate that such speech has become less, not more, restricted over time. NAL but maybe @PatentLawyer is familiar with some of the citations here...

Second of all, am I to understand that JA is actually willing to entertain the idea that publishing measurements of a speaker might constitute professional malpractice or something like defamation?? Wouldn't that put stereophile on the hook as well? WTF?

Usually, “professional” in state practice laws is defined as a line of work requiring a license issued by the state.

But I think one would have a difficult time proving that Erin was a professional whose opinions should be taken as fact by virtue of his professional status.

JA isn’t a professional by the first definition, but he is a bona fide journalist and would come closer to reaching that threshold. Amir would be somewhere in between.

That said, facts are facts, and stand on their own. For the reviewer to be liable for anything requires them to be false or misleading, and I would think expressing opinions as such (“I think…”, “it seemed to me…”, plus any of the standard disclaimers) avoids the accusation altogether.

Rick “never yet heard any of the three of them express opinion as if it was a fact” Denney

 

[PatentLawyer]

So, two things.

First of all, I can't find the 1990s case he's referring to, but I did find this article which seems to discuss the topic. Only professional "speech" (e.g. investment, medical, or legal advice) seems to be implicated. So if Erin were an A/V installer and recommended the wrong speakers, maybe there would be a concept of liability there. However, this article seems to indicate that such speech has become less, not more, restricted over time. NAL but maybe @PatentLawyer is familiar with some of the citations here...

Second of all, am I to understand that JA is actually willing to entertain the idea that publishing measurements of a speaker might constitute professional malpractice or something like defamation?? Wouldn't that put stereophile on the hook as well? WTF?

I think he's referring to this 1990 Supreme Court case, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkovich_v._Lorain_Journal_Co. If so, and he was a young lawyer under my purview, I'd be very critical of his summary.

 

[kemmler3D]

Another point of indignation here, on the idea of Erin's (or anyone's) reviews somehow creating genuine legal liability for him...

This entire site exists because audio reviewers have a durable tendency to pass off sci-fi & fantasy writing exercises as reviews, and we want an alternative to that. But suddenly people aren't sure if reviews are protected by the first amendment because there is objective information in the review?

Seriously?

 

[kemmler3D]

I think he's referring to this 1990 Supreme Court case, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkovich_v._Lorain_Journal_Co. If so, and he was a young lawyer under my purview, I'd be very critical of his summary.

Hmm, after reading the wikipedia page, the upshot seems to be that you need to be at least somewhat clear when you intend to express an opinion vs. a fact, as there isn't blanket protection for "opinions" that happen to contain factual assertions.

Either way I'm not at all sure that JA is referring to anything that might apply to Erin's work.

 

[Salt]

Discussion may be perpetuated further, but, in my view, we now should wait for reevaluation by Erin and, maybe, evalution by @amirm in parallel? to see all the facts of this issue.
The most important/horrifying aspect of all this disussion is for (not only?) me personally that there might be a more than estimated/exptected bias in reviews even where not to be expected (at least one magazine in G claims high prize because of no commercials ...).

 

[dfiler]

It is fascinating to see how different companies react to flaws pointed out in reviews. If nothing else, it shows me who I want to do business with and who I don't.

[Edit: Removed my criticism until more info is confirmed]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Will going on the offensive be a net positive for Tekton? Just how much impact do audio forums and YouTube channels have? The Tekton brand name has already suffered within this community. But how wide will that awareness be?

 

[mglobe]

Discussion may be perpetuated further, but, in my view, we now should wait for reevaluation by Erin and, maybe, evalution by @amirm in parallel? to see all the facts of this issue.
The most important/horrifying aspect of all this disussion is for (not only?) me personally that there might be a more than estimated/exptected bias in reviews even where not to be expected (at least one magazine in G claims high prize because of no commercials ...).

I struggle to see a good reason for Amir and/or Erin to want to do a reevaluation. If they give anything other than a glowing review, they will be right back where they are right now with Tekton. If they do give a glowing review, their "subscribers" will questing their integrity. If I were in their shoes, I'd just delete the reviews and move on.

 

[Katzz]

Some comments in Tekton Design Youtube channel and Facebook page, In case he decides to delete them or disable comments. Also some negative comments towards the company are starting to appear in Tekton youtube reviews

 

[Prana Ferox]

Even wilder, she loves my Quads.

Odd, I find they usually prefer the glutes

 

[kemmler3D]

Will going on the offensive be a net positive for Tekton? Just how much impact do audio forums and YouTube channels have? The Tekton brand name has already suffered within this community. But how wide will that awareness be?

Well, the ASR review (for me) is the 7th result on Google for "Tekton design" (without reference to a model) and ASR gets 2M views per month according to Amir... so this is what I'd call a "highly visible" interaction with the community, shall we say.

 

[diddley]

Well, the ASR review (for me) is the 7th result on Google for "Tekton design" (without reference to a model) and ASR gets 2M views per month according to Amir... so this is what I'd call a "highly visible" interaction with the community, shall we say.

for me 6 and 7 so in a few days it will be on top if you search for tekton troubadour.
@Eric Alexander got himself in a rabbit hole and he keeps on digging it deeper.

 

[kemmler3D]

I struggle to see a good reason for Amir and/or Erin to want to do a reevaluation. If they give anything other than a glowing review, they will be right back where they are right now with Tekton. If they do give a glowing review, their "subscribers" will questing their integrity.

I don't necessarily agree here. Re-reviewing if the manufacturer points out a potential problem with the speaker or methodology is what good & fair reviewers do, and it's what Amir and Erin typically do also.

Re-testing and giving a fair review based on the result - whatever the result - would show a lot of integrity. It would show that even legal threats don't influence the evaluation of the product - one way or the other.

Now, if the subjective review diverged from the measurements in an obvious way, I'd say the questioning-of-integrity might be fair. But I don't really expect that to happen. Erin and Amir might not be "professional reviewers" in a strict sense of doing it for salary, but I think they both have the professionalism it takes to handle this properly.

 

[Chrispy]

FWIW Tekton's post just made on the Audioholics thread about Erin's review:

There's some real misinformation bouncing around. For the record I am not "suing" anyone and I've never threatened to "sue" anyone over a review.
Would the review be live today if it didn't contain any provable mistakes? Yes- absolutely!
Here are the facts... I am protecting my brand and I have no problem with a review [good or bad] so long as it doesn't contain any mistakes. The review contained a couple of measurement mistakes based on a couple of simple oversights. In all fairness to Erin, the Troubadour is a unique loudspeaker that would throw the best acoustical measurement experts a bit of a curve ball - the speaker is even unique to the point of being allowed a US patent.
The measurement oversights have been talked about between Erin and I and Erin has agreed to remeasure the speaker. I respectfully asked Erin to pull his review temporarily and we're working together to ensure the measurements he publishes are accurate.
I believe we've got everything figured out and expect his review to be published again soon.
Respectfully,
Eric Alexander
Audio Designer
President
Tekton Design, LLC