Spending big bucks on HiFi Audio

[Doodski]

Interesting thoughts.
I think we all spend more than we should on whatever it is that flips our switches.
For so many it's the most obvious things that will shout the loudest about the size of their wallets, the wife's live best with those very well. From big houses and cars to loud gold jewelry, watches, and diamonds, the need to impress others is most important.
I've had a couple dollar devils in my life, mainly motorcycles and Hi Fi. I'm an adrenaline junkie and the need for speed always loomed large. I never could afford the really fast cars, so very fast bikes were always a lot cheaper.
I wouldn't want to guess on my lifetime investment in HiFi gear but it's always been way more money than my income could justify. Believe me, I heard about that plenty from the house mice that have come and gone over the decades. LOL

I spent my extra moola on going out and socializing. For audio gear I either won the stuff in sales contests or went to the junk/used parts room and repaired the gear to make it mine. Bikes are always a lure but to be frank I prefer a performance 2 stroke dirt bike over street rides.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I admire you! LoL... Those speakers are soo cooL!

They were such a kick. Heck no they were not the last word in imaging or accuracy, but they were a heck of a lot more fun than most speakers that do image better and are more neutral. I enjoyed the hell out of them!

As my father used to say, it is better to be lucky than smart. I was just supremely lucky. I was at the right place at the right time.

 

[kemmler3D]

Ugh, glorified BT speakers that cost $988 for a set!

you could get 2 Adam T5V's and a matching T10s sub, plus a Topping D50 iii to drive them for like $40 more!

They have built-in automatic room correction that basically anyone can use successfully, robust streaming features, a decent app, measure surprisingly well, and have industrial design cues from this century. You can get stereo sound from just one.

Some ASR folks like to scoff at these, but you won't find many ASR threads about how bad Sonos sounds, usually it's the opposite. The threads on how people "aren't interested in high quality sound" consistently overlook Sonos, but if you want to know where people's interest in good sound (from speakers) went, that's where. And frankly, those people didn't get a raw deal, even though better bang for buck is possible. Saying people aren't interested in Hi-Fi while ignoring Sonos is like saying people aren't interested in cars while ignoring Tesla.

You don't have to like it, but Sonos is pretty much the popular image of hi-fi today among the general public.

It's easy to overestimate people's appetite for plugging things in, technical complexity, and wires. That doesn't mean they don't want their music to sound good, though.

 

[Doodski]

They were such a kick. Heck no they were not the last word in imaging or accuracy, but they were a heck of a lot more fun than most speakers that do image better and are more neutral. I enjoyed the hell out of them!

As my father used to say, it is better to be lucky than smart. I was just supremely lucky. I was at the right place at the right time.

I got turned onto big JBLs with these. Midrange to die for and a wonderful fun bass.

 

[Anton D]

Daft Punk is playing at your house, your house!

Cool!

 

[Pretorious]

They have built-in automatic room correction that basically anyone can use successfully, robust streaming features, a decent app, measure surprisingly well, and have industrial design cues from this century. You can get stereo sound from just one.

Some ASR folks like to scoff at these, but you won't find many ASR threads about how bad Sonos sounds, usually it's the opposite. The threads on how people "aren't interested in high quality sound" consistently overlook Sonos, but if you want to know where people's interest in good sound went, that's where. And frankly, those people didn't get a raw deal, even though better bang for buck is technically possible. Saying people aren't interested in Hi-Fi while ignoring Sonos is like saying people aren't interested in cars while ignoring Tesla.

You don't have to like it, but Sonos is pretty much the popular image of hi-fi today among the general public.

It's easy to overestimate people's appetite for plugging things in, technical complexity, and wires. That doesn't mean they don't want their music to sound good, though.

I cannot overemphasize this. It is exactly how I feel and I think is accurate to how mainstream consumers want to listen to music. The atmosphere even here at ASR can feel hostile towards these products from time to time, though on a far less scale than other audiophile websites, obviously because we try to view and rate things on a technical level.

To illustrate a point, I am a technical, educated, scientific, engineer type of guy. I develop software for a living, and have to engineer enterprise products. Tinkering with things was fun in my twenties, but here I am now approaching 40 and I’m exhausted at the end of a long day. I don’t want to fiddle with things, I just want them to work. I appreciate and respect greatly good engineering; so of course I look for that in anything I’m going to purchase. As such, let someone else engineer the audio product to a high standard because I don’t want to do that in addition to my day job. I just want to buy a good speaker or whatever audio product it may be, plug it in, it set itself up through minimal interaction, and then it plays accurate and enjoyable sounding music when I want it to.

That’s it. I’m not in this hobby to fiddle for every bit of ground of my enjoyment. I’m in it because I respect a well-engineered product that has thought behind it and makes my life more enjoyable. Then I can listen to my music and go about my day without another thought. To me that’s high fidelity. Unfortunately there is still a stigma on these websites (and yes, even from some here) that good sound cannot come from Sonos, Bose, Sony, Apple, etc.. But wake up, the data says differently. And I firmly believe people want to hear their music in decent sound and not worry about the gear that’s providing it.

 

[CleanSound]

Unfortunately there is still a stigma on these websites (and yes, even from some here) that good sound cannot come from Sonos, Bose, Sony, Apple, etc.. But wake up, the data says differently. And I firmly believe people want to hear their music in decent sound and not worry about the gear that’s providing it.

The data shows ok for Sonos. Very good for what it is, but below average for what great is.

 

[Doodski]

Tinkering with things was fun in my twenties, but here I am now approaching 40 and I’m exhausted at the end of a long day. I don’t want to fiddle with things, I just want them to work. I appreciate and respect greatly good engineering; so of course I look for that in anything I’m going to purchase. As such, let someone else engineer the audio product to a high standard because I don’t want to do that in addition to my day job. I just want to buy a good speaker or whatever audio product it may be, plug it in, it set itself up through minimal interaction

That's me too! Exactly. I just want the PC to work and be effortless.

 

[Pretorious]

That's me too! Exactly. I just want the PC to work and be effortless.

Indeed! I feel that there needs to be a community or section on ASR that focuses on simplicity and convenience in addition to good sound.

 

[Doodski]

Indeed! I feel that there needs to be a community or section on ASR that focuses on simplicity and convenience in addition to good sound.

Me too. I have seen ~several tens of thousands of broken devices and MOD'd ~tens of thousands too and I appreciate working stuff that lets me relax and chill.

 

[kemmler3D]

I firmly believe people want to hear their music in decent sound and not worry about the gear that’s providing it.

I spent a few years selling large-ish portable speakers to mainstream consumers... I can tell you with at least a little authority that this is completely correct. And of course, this is true in every other category of consumer electronics, too. "It just works" is the goal for many designers at CE firms... why should audio be any different?

We're hobbyists (to varying degrees) and we like control, agency, and squeezing out the last drop of performance per dollar. It's fun or at least satisfying for us. Most people aren't hobbyists in that sense, it doesn't matter what the product category is.

"traditional" hi-fi is like a manual transmission car (in the US) in today's world. There are good arguments for them, but ultimately the average consumer can't be bothered.

I will say that in testing I did years ago, only Sonos (among the mainstream brands you mentioned) had anything like legitimately flat frequency response. I think they have a more technically correct and uncompromising approach to sound than most of the mainstream brands.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm a Sonos fanboy. I don't own any of their stuff. But I see them (from my time in the CE space) as maybe something like a worthy adversary, respectable in that sense.

The data shows ok for Sonos. Very good for what it is, but below average for what great is.

Yes, but compared to most mainstream "plug and play" consumer-grade stuff it's shockingly competent. "For what it is" - a very convenient way to get decent sound at home. Not everyone's cup of tea especially at ASR, but apparently not a bad business proposition.

I'm actually listening to some Sonos 5s right now because my company's office is full of them. They are really not offensive in any way, and I have ASR-favorite gear at home. I think we have over a dozen speakers around the space. Before WiiM came along, I don't think the average person (read: an office manager at a tech company with no particular background in audio) could figure out how to set up an office-wide wireless audio system without using Sonos. If nothing else you have to respect the usability.

 

[Pretorious]

I will say that in testing I did years ago, only Sonos (among the mainstream brands you mentioned) had anything like legitimately flat frequency response. I think they have a more technically correct and uncompromising approach to sound than most of the mainstream brands.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm a Sonos fanboy. I don't own any of their stuff. But I see them (from my time in the CE space) as maybe something like a worthy adversary, respectable in that sense.

Indeed you and I are in the same page. I also am not a Sonos, Bose, whatever fanboy, but I enjoy playing devil’s advocate when it’s necessary. There seems to be an automatic dismissal of their products or types of products when most everything sounds quite good nowadays. I must admit I find that a little offensive from an engineer’s perspective. It’s fine to denigrate a company for cutting costs or seeking profits at the expense of consumers. But to automatically dismiss a design decision irks me to no end, and that’s what a lot of the criticism of these companies feels like to me. What is being achieved in this space with the limitations designated is quite remarkable. I think that’s praiseworthy for technology.

Similarly, my main system consists of Revels, and I listen often on Sennheiser headphones too; yet there are times where I need to shut out the world on my ANC Bose phones and am always shocked how good they are for what they do. They measure accurate and sound it too—must be hifi then. Who cares how it’s presented?

Put it another way, praising excellent engineering in traditional hifi while ignoring advancements “outside” of it is unfair. It’s a two-way street. Credit must be given where credit is due, even if the design goals are potentially different. Could the two worlds live in harmony?

 

[kemmler3D]

But to automatically dismiss a design decision irks me to no end, and that’s what a lot of the criticism of these companies feels like to me.... Who cares how it’s presented?

...Could the two worlds live in harmony?

I think a lot of it really is based on industrial design, like you say/imply. Sonos stuff looks a great deal like much worse speakers from Sony, Bose, Amazon, Google, etc. So I think it subconsciously gets lumped in with those by the ASR / audiophile crowd.

Coming from the other way, even something like the LS50w looks a bit like "traditional" hi-fi and I'd bet a lot of mainstream consumers are scared off because they assume there's going to be a lot of wires and crap. They won't realize that those speakers are as easy as Sonos (more or less) and plugging any given speaker into a WiiM Amp is only one step beyond setting up a Sonos. By all rights, both of those should be making a big dent in Sonos' sales, but I am not aware that it's happening yet.

The industrial design drives a lot of what you might call "consideration prejudice" where the basic form factor seems to imply a lot about performance AND usability, when it might not actually.

Can they live in harmony... well it's not like we're at war with mainstream consumer stuff, or vice-versa. I just think consumer education is expensive and difficult from the brand's end.

The good news: Most people will go to a knowledgeable friend, family member, or peer before deciding on audio gear purchases, if they do any research at all. What ASR folks can do is be that friend and suggest the "good but easy" options to the "normies".

 

[Sal1950]

I spent my extra moola on going out and socializing.

Well then there was that, which I neglected to mention.
I don't want to think about what I spent across the bar or put up my nose for many years, but hey, such is life. LOLOL

The data shows ok for Sonos. Very good for what it is, but below average for what great is.

Now that's the facts of it. There's good and then there's great!
It's that why most of us are here?

That's me too! Exactly. I just want the PC to work and be effortless.

I'd love for that to be true but it never works out that way.
I always have to build my own and then wrestle a couple OS's to the mat before I'm happy.

"traditional" hi-fi is like a manual transmission car (in the US) in today's world.

Oh oh,, that's all I'll drive.
I've never seen a pus case automatic I couldn't break. LOL

 

[dlovesmusic]

Pretty subjective I would say unless we define what big bucks mean.

You can spend $300 on a wiim amp with a pair of bookshelves for another $300 and that’s considered “big bucks” by many

 

[MattHooper]

I think this is a faulty assumption, I think spending a lot on HiFi is as socially acceptable as spending a lot of money on any other niche hobby or luxury.

I generally agree.

At least that has tracked my experience when my audio hobby comes up in discussions with non-audiophiles, or when I've had a great many non-audiophile guests who notice my gear (as some of it is prominent in our main floor rooms).

There certainly is a contingent of normal folk who may see audiophiles as a bit nuts (though most don't even think about it). But even when people are introduced to expensive audio gear it's quite possible to not come off as delusional. When I discuss the hobby with someone else they get that good sound is my bag. I have mine; they have theirs, and people can often be as sheepish about their own "obsessions" or hobbies so they can understand.

Some guests ask how much some of my gear costs, e.g. the speakers, or my turntable or whatever catches their eye and we end up discussing. I tell them but it's in the context of, yeah, this is my passion, these are luxury goods in the audio world and so they have luxury-like pricing. Some guests don't bat an eye at the prices. Some people's eyes widen and they go "wow." I always explain that it doesn't take near the money I've spent to get fantastic sound, but that I was fine with paying for those little differences that really grabbed me, and I enjoy well built gear so don't mind paying extra. They get it. Especially when they take a listen to some music on the system.

It's like when my friend who is in to cars - various models of Porsche etc - takes me for a ride. I get it, it's fun and cool. But, like my non-audiophile guests, it's just not something I'd put my disposable income in to. Just not my passion. But plenty of people can still connect with the passion of a hobby they don't share, since many have their own passions.

 

[DLS79]

They have built-in automatic room correction that basically anyone can use successfully, robust streaming features, a decent app, measure surprisingly well, and have industrial design cues from this century. You can get stereo sound from just one.

I saw all that in the marketing page, and i still don't like them, specially the eq and the app. So many younger people are down right paranoid about being tracked, being controlled, and are anti corporations, yet they love Apple and stuff like this. Sure lock me in, so I have to use your app and your eq methodology, and I can basically only add your products to the system....

 

[rdenney]

In all forums, there will be those who apply their social or moral values to every question, and there really is no point in arguing about it with them.

The big issue that is on topic is the oft-assumed correlation between price and sound quality that exists in the HiFi world. This is the assumption that an expensive item should be better than a cheap one, just because it’s more expensive. That correlation survives neither analysis nor controlled subjective testing. In fact, the boutique high-end might surprisingly often perform less well than competent but cheaper stuff.

But there are hard-core science proponents on this forum that own fabulously expensive equipment, including the founder and owner. That should be enough right there to refute the central theorem being questioned in the OP.

Rick “probably summarizing other posts” Denney

 

[kemmler3D]

I saw all that in the marketing page, and i still don't like them, specially the eq and the app. So many younger people are down right paranoid about being tracked, being controlled, and are anti corporations, yet they love Apple and stuff like this. Sure lock me in, so I have to use your app and your eq methodology, and I can basically only add your products to the system....

I don't think you have to like Sonos... I have also studiously avoided buying any for myself, because I think they're overpriced, the fidelity isn't as high as I prefer, and I don't want to deal with vendor lock-in either. But you can't say their approach isn't working, nor can you say the speakers sound bad for what they are.

This is why I'm gung-ho on WiiM, since they're the first brand to put out something I think presents real competition for multi-room audio vs. Sonos.

 

[Multicore]

Why is it not acceptable by our society (and wives) to spend big bucks on HiFi audio (or any other lesser practiced hobbies) ... ?

In what way is it socially unacceptable? I mean, in what way does society not accept it? How does this manifest?

It's not dealt with by criminal or civil courts and doesn't prevent you form getting employment or a bank account. Does it get you mean looks at church? or make it hard to find a marriage partner? Lose friends, followers and likes on social media? What are the penalties society inflicts on the person who spent too much on a home stereo?