The Truth About Vinyl Records

[deweydm]

I've hundreds of CDs and only a handful have dynamic limiting to the point where it's a problem.

Yeah, well mastered CDs are awesome. As is well mastered streaming, or releases on streaming where multiple versions are available.

 

[MattHooper]

Yes, I agree it will take a lot of plays to get to the point where it is audible. Arguably not an issue but I do have records I've owned for forty years, that can mean hundreds of plays.

The thing is, why use something that does wear down when there's a contactless medium available? That's really the part I don't get. Vinyl was superseded in every respect 40 years ago.

Now I can understand maintaining an existing collection from the 1970s and 1980s, and a deck to play them on, but still buying more of them in 2024? I don't get it.

Well there is of course "that" other thread explaining it

People are different. Some people LOVE working on motorcycles and cars in the garage. To others (like me) that sounds like utter drudgery. It offers me nothing because it doesn't appeal to me. For some people the physical aspects and the demands of vinyl would be a drag, for others it's part of the appeal.

Vinyl tends to sound different in a way that appeals to me, so I still enjoy buying it. And as for new vinyl, the packaging and aesthetics can be just wonderful. For me it's far more exciting receiving, for instance, a new soundtrack in the form of a beautiful cover, artwork, liner notes, and holding the big shiny disc (often some surprising color design) in my hands, getting to interact with my turntable with is a more interesting object to me than a black box DAC or streamer that just sits there. And those are only some of the reasons why I still purchase vinyl. Others include how it encourages me to focus when listening, where digital music is so ubiquitous it feels "background sound" sometimes, and it's so easy to swipe from track to track, I can get distracted. It's like if I'm going to read a book I sometimes need to put my iphone in another room so I'm not instead wanting to keep checking it or surf the internet. Likewise with playing a record, I can unplug from the internet and digital life and not have to keep interacting with my phone, which tends to encourage a distracted state of mind.

It all depends on the individual.

 

[FrankF]

Well there is of course "that" other thread explaining it

People are different. Some people LOVE working on motorcycles and cars in the garage. To others (like me) that sounds like utter drudgery. It offers me nothing because it doesn't appeal to me. For some people the physical aspects and the demands of vinyl would be a drag, for others it's part of the appeal.

Vinyl tends to sound different in a way that appeals to me, so I still enjoy buying it. And as for new vinyl, the packaging and aesthetics can be just wonderful. For me it's far more exciting receiving, for instance, a new soundtrack in the form of a beautiful cover, artwork, liner notes, and holding the big shiny disc (often some surprising color design) in my hands, getting to interact with my turntable with is a more interesting object to me than a black box DAC or streamer that just sits there. And those are only some of the reasons why I still purchase vinyl. Others include how it encourages me to focus when listening, where digital music is so ubiquitous it feels "background sound" sometimes, and it's so easy to swipe from track to track, I can get distracted. It's like if I'm going to read a book I sometimes need to put my iphone in another room so I'm not instead wanting to keep checking it or surf the internet. Likewise with playing a record, I can unplug from the internet and digital life and not have to keep interacting with my phone, which tends to encourage a distracted state of mind.

It all depends on the individual.

Well sir. Turn in your ASR membership card and head over to The Steve Hoffman Forums because what you said has totally ignored the science.

 

[MattHooper]

As has been stated many times, if you as an individual like or prefer the sound of music as it comes off a vinyl LP, knock yourself out! Immerse yourself in the experience and get up in twenty minutes to flip that black disk over and do it all over again. However, refrain from trying to convince me that the quality of the sound as reproduced from vinyl is in any way comparable or worse, superior to a professionally made digital recording.

I'm not sure anyone is trying to convince you. I'm certainly not anyway. Rather it's more about our expressing reasons for preferences. If we are talking about claims made to convince, I could turn it around and say "refrain from trying to convince me that vinyl CAN'T have comparable quality to digital sources." Because I know very well from comparing that it can. "Comparable" not meaning "exactly the same" but "comparable" in sounding both very similar, and in conveying very high sound quality. In other words, the similarity in the sound quality is often far greater than the differences. That's my experience, with enough records that I don't feel I'm slumming it much when playing them.

The superiority of digital is not some always obvious and BIG advantage across the board. It will vary from recording to recording.

So for instance there was a simultaneous release of one of my favourite soundtracks, Star Trek the original motion picture. The digital CD, which I bought, and the vinyl came from the same newly re-mastered and expanded digital masters. When I compare them the sound is VERY similar, both sound amazing to me. They sound a little bit different, which of course I'd place on the digital being *just that little bit* more accurate in this case. However, can I say it sounds "superior" to digital? Well, not technically. But to me it sounds a little bit "superior" in terms of sonic characteristics I seek - there's a slight edge and texture to the vinyl sound that makes instruments seem a bit more vivid, and pop out more, and I get from the vinyl the slightly better sensation of "hearing real instruments." So it's "superior" in that respect, to me. But I wouldn't say it would meet your criteria that way.

Again, this is just speaking to my experience: it's not to convince you that you need to find vinyl "comparable" in quality to digital. You may be much more prone to be put off - or perhaps even exaggerate - the differences, such that in your mind "there is no comparison."

I didn't concoct any of the content in my original post, I researched the process of creating a vinyl LP and laid that out for anyone who was curious. I stand by my closing statement on that post, namely that it is questionable to even call vinyl LP's "HiFi" in this era as digital technology, even in it's early form, could easily beat vinyl on the basis of specification and ability with respect to music recording and reproduction IF IT"S DONE RIGHT!

One can also say that a vinyl record can sound very close to the digital version IF IT's DONE RIGHT.

 

[Mart68]

Well there is of course "that" other thread explaining it

People are different. Some people LOVE working on motorcycles and cars in the garage. To others (like me) that sounds like utter drudgery. It offers me nothing because it doesn't appeal to me. For some people the physical aspects and the demands of vinyl would be a drag, for others it's part of the appeal.

Vinyl tends to sound different in a way that appeals to me, so I still enjoy buying it. And as for new vinyl, the packaging and aesthetics can be just wonderful. For me it's far more exciting receiving, for instance, a new soundtrack in the form of a beautiful cover, artwork, liner notes, and holding the big shiny disc (often some surprising color design) in my hands, getting to interact with my turntable with is a more interesting object to me than a black box DAC or streamer that just sits there. And those are only some of the reasons why I still purchase vinyl. Others include how it encourages me to focus when listening, where digital music is so ubiquitous it feels "background sound" sometimes, and it's so easy to swipe from track to track, I can get distracted. It's like if I'm going to read a book I sometimes need to put my iphone in another room so I'm not instead wanting to keep checking it or surf the internet. Likewise with playing a record, I can unplug from the internet and digital life and not have to keep interacting with my phone, which tends to encourage a distracted state of mind.

It all depends on the individual.

Some of those things I do get. The sound quality thing I don't.

There's always that background roar of stylus in contact with vinyl and it does obscure detail like the studio ambience around individual tracks in the mix.

With good vinyl and a good deck it can still be there, but it's not as easy to hear as with digital. And I like to hear it!

I've had total vinyl fanatic friends concede on that point, if nothing else.

I concede on the artwork, the cool factor, the romance, the nostalgia - all of that.

I just use CD, no streaming, so I put a disc in, sit down and listen to the whole album. Flipping around from track to track never happens. The remote for the player is still sealed in its bag.

The difference between that and playing a record is there's no interruption in concentration to change sides, so it's actually less distracting. And there's no temptation just to listen to one side then swap to another album.

 

[MattHooper]

Some of those things I do get. The sound quality thing I don't.

There's always that background roar of stylus in contact with vinyl and it does obscure detail like the studio ambience around individual tracks in the mix.

With good vinyl and a good deck it can still be there, but it's not as easy to hear as with digital. And I like to hear it!

I've had total vinyl fanatic friends concede on that point, if nothing else.

I know what you mean. And it's funny you point that out because more than ever I've come to love hearing the particular quality of reverbs and ambience on recordings. It's one of the things I concentrate on if I'm tweaking around stuff (e.g. acoustics). The most subtle acoustic or reverb cues are often the first things to go if there's too much room reflection, or not enough resolution in a recording/playback system.

And yes when directly comparing the same digital vs vinyl tracks I have sometimes heard the vinyl slightly "dry up" a bit more some subtle reverbs. I didn't perceive it as rushing sound covering it, but more like lower resolution.

On the other hand, there's no way I'd be listening to vinyl if it weren't generally reproducing the specific ambience/reverbs of different recordings, including really subtle cues.
When I replaced my original Micro Seiki turntable with my current model, that was one of the first things I was impressed with: a "holy cow" almost CD-like clarity of hearing the ambience and reverbs in the tracks. I'm often utterly blown away by how small the signals are that can be dug out of vinyl. So...can't say it would satisfy you, but as another guy who considers ambience/reverb retrieval as a big priority, I've been generally satisfied.

Basically, given how much I value sound quality I don't think I could be satisfied if my records regularly sounded as bad and compromised as some people describe it. But I can generally be assured that whether I play a decent digital recording or vinyl, I will be "wow'd."

I concede on the artwork, the cool factor, the romance, the nostalgia - all of that.

I just use CD, no streaming, so I put a disc in, sit down and listen to the whole album. Flipping around from track to track never happens. The remote for the player is still sealed in its bag.

The difference between that and playing a record is there's no interruption in concentration to change sides, so it's actually less distracting. And there's no temptation just to listen to one side then swap to another album.

I can see that, with CD.

The individual tolerance for distraction reminds me of my friend who, even in this internet-addled age, can some how plow his way through the thickest books with ease. I'm reading a few books now but I often have to leave my phone in another room to not distract me, and even then keeping focused can be a challenge.

 

[krabapple]

Who said anything about “noiseless” LPs?

Mr Atma says he's got records so quiet the only noise one hears from them is the analog master tape hiss.

But that means if the master 'tape' is a digital recording... <mind blown>

Why do these discussions have to degenerate into misleading hyperbole?

I dunno why do they? This atmaspheric nugget of hyperbole has been laying here since Monday: "I already showed that LPs have wider bandwidth than digital with distortion and noise much lower than most people realize."

I see he also cites a 1980s LoC study he claims says CDs won't last 100 years. I have quite playable ones that are hitting 40 this year, should I start to worry? (Not to fear: they are all redundantly backed up with identical copies.)

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Deweydm's phrase 'the blast radius of repeated LP plays" is my favorite of the week. It's new, whereas the rest of this thread is 99% recycled content, if you've been in this hobby long enough.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Yes, I agree it will take a lot of plays to get to the point where it is audible. Arguably not an issue but I do have records I've owned for forty years, that can mean hundreds of plays.

The thing is, why use something that does wear down when there's a contactless medium available?

Two reasons
1. Euphonic colorations of the medium and specific vinyl playback gear I own
2. Often subjectively superior mastering for a given recording

 

[Axo1989]

I just use CD, no streaming, so I put a disc in, sit down and listen to the whole album. Flipping around from track to track never happens. The remote for the player is still sealed in its bag.

The difference between that and playing a record is there's no interruption in concentration to change sides, so it's actually less distracting. And there's no temptation just to listen to one side then swap to another album.

I can see that, with CD.

The individual tolerance for distraction reminds me of my friend who, even in this internet-addled age, can some how plow his way through the thickest books with ease. I'm reading a few books now but I often have to leave my phone in another room to not distract me, and even then keeping focused can be a challenge.

We've discussed this elsewhere, but I surmise my listening/playing habits—I listen to whole albums, usually—come from growing up with CD before streaming (or the dreaded YT). You must be the other side of the distractibility bell curve if your phone distracts you from a physical book.

But on jewel cases I couldn't agree more. I suppose apart from aesthetics, haptics and fragility they are fine. Ahhh, horrible things ...

Delightful by contrast when some CD releases came in cardboard sleeves or boxes, some quite elaborate.

 

[Robin L]

Delightful by contrast when some CD releases came in cardboard sleeves or boxes, some quite elaborate.

Digipacks - cardboard sleeves holding a plastic interior that has a hub for holding on to the CD - is a big step up from the jewel case. It can bounce and survive. Of course, multi-CD boxes are even better if you can find the shelf space. It was usually the other way around with LPs - single record sleeves tended to be more durable than boxed sets.

 

[MattHooper]

We've discussed this elsewhere, but I surmise my listening/playing habits—I listen to whole albums, usually—come from growing up with CD before streaming (or the dreaded YT). You must be the other side of the distractibility bell curve if your phone distracts you from a physical book.

But on jewel cases I couldn't agree more. I suppose apart from aesthetics, haptics and fragility they are fine. Ahhh, horrible things ...

Delightful by contrast when some CD releases came in cardboard sleeves or boxes, some quite elaborate.

Right. I also often have my phone beside me streaming music, or playing a bit of white noise (if my tinnitus is bothering me) so it's not always the case. But if I find myself reaching for it too often when I'm trying to read I put it somewhere else.

I'm astonished anyone is able to get through school in this age of digital distractions. Though some of it must be nature - of my two sons my eldest isn't addicted to his phone at all, not really a computer and screens or gamer type, but my youngest is far more addicted and the typical "staring at his phone all day" young person.

 

[MattHooper]

Digipacks - cardboard sleeves holding a plastic interior that has a hub for holding on to the CD - is a big step up from the jewel case. It can bounce and survive. Of course, multi-CD boxes are even better if you can find the shelf space. It was usually the other way around with LPs - single record sleeves tended to be more durable than boxed sets.

I always appreciated when CDs came in a cardboard sleeve.

 

[Axo1989]

Digipacks - cardboard sleeves holding a plastic interior that has a hub for holding on to the CD - is a big step up from the jewel case. It can bounce and survive. Of course, multi-CD boxes are even better if you can find the shelf space. It was usually the other way around with LPs - single record sleeves tended to be more durable than boxed sets.

I only have one big box (Massive Attack singles which came in fun heat-sensitive wrapping) and a few plain cardboard sleeves (some Radiohead) but a fair number of digipack double disc releases. Now I know what there are called.

 

[Doodski]

Right. I also often have my phone beside me streaming music, or playing a bit of white noise (if my tinnitus is bothering me) so it's not always the case. But if I find myself reaching for it too often when I'm trying to read I put it somewhere else.

I'm astonished anyone is able to get through school in this age of digital distractions. Though some of it must be nature - of my two sons my eldest isn't addicted to his phone at all, not really a computer and screens or gamer type, but my youngest is far more addicted and the typical "staring at his phone all day" young person.

I am confident most people will get over the impressiveness and addiction level use of the communications and PC entertainment gear and get back to earth matters in time.

 

[Newman]

…I am interested in this, however, can you direct us to some evidence that the vinyl measurements are inaccurate? Is it just vinyl or all of the measurements?

This was discussed up thread, much of it between @Newman and myself. Unfortunately this subject is complicated and people on both sides of it stake out extreme positions to "make their point". My take away, and I have spent some time looking into this with a lot of CD's and Vinyl that I own, as well as reading comments from "both sides" is that for a "post loudness wars compressed master" it is very likely if it is transferred to vinyl that the DR rating will be higher even though the music is not in reality "more dynamic". This make comparing most recent recordings on digital vs vinyl by DR more or less useless and misleading as the vinyl will have higher DR.

Where it gets complicated is for more "traditional" masterings from the 1980's and earlier. For these masters it appears that the DR rating does not change much when these are transferred to LP and in these cases a reasonable inference about the dynamics of the music can be made when comparing DR rating from the past to the present for the same song. Of course it really gets messed up when an older "traditional" master is "remastered" digitally and massively compressed per the current norms and then this master is used to press a new LP.

To me the bottom line is the DR rating CAN be useful if you really understand it but it is just as likely to be misunderstood or abused. For me the most reliable way to get dynamic masters is to get "original pre-loudness wars CD's".

My perspective can be summarised here.

The Ian Shepherd video I mentioned is here.

 

[pderousse]

My perspective can be summarised here.

The Ian Shepherd video I mentioned is here.

Thank you. The video (also linked above) is very clear about the problem - too many variables between the vinyl pressing and the measurement. This is always something I suspected, and so wondered why others quoted and acted on the measurements. Sorry, it was a bit difficult to cut through your animus toward the website and catch the argument precisely, but clearly you dislike it.

 

[Newman]

Sure, I don't think it's very compelling evidence because it doesn't actually reflect real world use and wear of a record.

As I said already, I agree that vinyl can sound great, and you can take all kinds of (expensive, time-consuming) steps to mitigate the inherent flaws of the format. But it's a lot of time you don't have to spend with digital, and no matter how careful you are, the simple process of taking a vinyl record out of a sleeve, placing it on a turntable, playing the record, turning it over, putting it back in its sleeve, storing it, then doing it again, is eventually going to physically degrade the record, whether it's because of dust, oil, warping, scratches, wear, or whatever else. To deny that this is the reality of vinyl is just silly. Everyone who's spent any amount of time with vinyl LPs knows it happens to every record that actually gets played, eventually.

The No Damage argument certainly doesn’t sit well with the words of Peter Ledermann of Soundsmith with his frequent mentions of record wear by the stylus. And the argument I have sometimes seen that a line contact stylus can ‘refresh’ your record collection by playing a part of the groove that the elliptical was not touching….that wouldn’t make sense if the groove had no audible wear.

 

[AdamG]

You change the subject like a master grumpus.

Enjoying vinyl is not saying magic cables lift veils. You are simply obfuscating from a loser's unhappy position.

They obvious gripe you, we can see your rage, it's humorous, but kind of sad.

Since you just can’t stop yourself from using personal insults and attacks on the person rather than the idea or position. You have effectively exhausted all the rope you had left. Best wishes to you on your journey. But your experience here has come to a self inflicted conclusion.

 

[MattHooper]

I didn’t notice anyone making a “No Damage” argument.

Only trying to provide some context for the significance of the wear caused by playing the record.

 

[Newman]

FWIW the Library of Congress did an archival study in the 1980s and found that LPs will last about a century if treated correctly. CDs by comparison don't last that long;

776 years was their mean life expectancy for CDs at average room temperatures and humidities, or 17 times longer if treated correctly ie stored in conditions equivalent to their standard storage vaults.