The Laptop Thread

[somebodyelse]

Your 2014 Mac definitely has no support from Mac.

Actually it seems that it does. It can run Monterey which is still in support and had its last update in December. Apple usually provide security updates for their OS versions for ~3yrs, hence my comment about the last update being some time in the next 10 months.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102852

As people have said, there's always linux after that. By the time the M1 Macs go out of support linux will probably be in a decent state on them too.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Actually it seems that it does. It can run Monterey which is still in support and had its last update in December. Apple usually provide security updates for their OS versions for ~3yrs, hence my comment about the last update being some time in the next 10 months.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102852

As people have said, there's always linux after that. By the time the M1 Macs go out of support linux will probably be in a decent state on them too.

Depends on whether it is a late 2014 mini or not.

Yeah Linux is good for Win or Mac machines. Apple however drops support on hardware that would still work. As evidenced by some work arounds that let you do so. Windows supports the os until hardware prevents it. So you'll normally be able to use Win hardware longer if it's still fulfilling any needs.

 

[cookiefactory]

Almost 2 months into ownership of a 16" M3 Max MBP and I'm very happy with it thus far. I bought it to replace an Intel-based 2019 16" MBP and as you can imagine, it's an upgrade in just about every category.

Biggest "real world" improvements are the battery life and the performance. My Intel MBP would get 3-4 hours worth of development work (battery still in excellent condition) while the new M3 gets 6+ (I've actually not yet needed to run it further).

The performance is pretty incredible. It actually compiles my project in less than half the time it takes my desktop PC, which has a last-gen Threadripper. Not exactly a fair comparison given the age of the latter, but this kind of improvement in my real-world workflow is definitely something to write home about.

 

[Ze Frog]

Yeah. Or the cpu can't boost as high at the same time the dGPU needs power.

That's just the world of powerful laptops..

Mine can do 150W for GPU and 95W for CPU simultaneously, or 110W on CPU with lower GPU load, so not too much of a penalty really. It's a minefield though finding out those specs sometimes, I think a large percentage have no idea and buy a GPU above that basically runs as the one below it.

Can't believe there's 4090's in laptops, although admittedly in a laptop it's not really the full deal obviously. The 4060 though, that is effectively same as a desktop equivalent, and some laptops have a 150W TDP allowable for it but it only really needs 95W, doesn't really scale beyond that.

Be interesting to see where we are in 5 years, but companies really need to try for lower power draw, some parts are ridiculous right now, especially Intel throwing more and more power at chips to match AMD. It's kind of odd, my theory year's ago would have been with each passing reduction in NM technology that the power required would drop. Instead it almost seems to be the absolute opposite in some chips.

 

[darrellc]

Back when I had to use Windows laptops, once Microsoft Store started selling "Signature" PCs without the OEM's bloatware load, I would only buy those machines. Much like I would only buy Google's phone back in Android days. Samsung hardware was great, but that software load... Using a Signature WinPC laptop vs. identical hardware with the OEM load was a day vs night experience.

Microsoft still selling Signature PCs or equivalent?

 

[pablolie]

I know many people for whom a high-powered laptop is their only main computing-productivity device, outside of their smartphone of course. Wherever they go, the laptop with their entire repository follows along.

I remain a workstation-server guy, I always have a big desktop workstation at home - and enjoy building them and making them noise-free without much of a performance change. Not that there's a lot of performance differential between the top laptop and desktop CPUs available these days, really. Clearly most xPU development goes into portable stuff these days, honest, and desktop CPU improvements have failed to stick to Moore's Law for many years now, no matters what the Intels and AMDs of the world say. And not to take away from Apple, because their chips are clearly high performance, but based on ARM stuff - what Apple can afford to do is throw $$$$ at it and afford the best process tech wherever they can get it. In a nutshell, to me CPU performance isn't that important these days, I could not care less if the latest and greatest CPU saves me 45 seconds compiling a video, just like I don't much care if a DAC has a SINAD of 110 or 120dB, honestly. I'd rather buy into a great balance of performance and longevity and usability.

My laptops are basically peripheral devices I use on the move, the powerful stuff I leave to my workstation, which is also the hub-server for all my stuff at home, and it's also where I do the real CPU intensive stuff. For laptops, I prefer great portability.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Ze Frog high power consumption by GPU's is definitely a problem. CPU's keep getting more efficient while GPU's more power hungry. Desktop GPU's draw lots of power, hundreds of watts. Capping a 4070 at 100 watts probably doesn't do much by itself, but if it doesn't have good cooling there will be thermal throttling and a loss of performance. Asus makes a Zenbook with a 100 watt 4070 in a 14" screen size. The PSU is 200 watts so the laptop and PSU probably weigh around 5.5 lb together with isn't too bad. I wonder how it would do compared to a 145 watt 4070 in a 16" case with a high end cooling solution. You might look at the Puget Benchmark for Premiere Pro. It gives detailed information about the machines tested.

 

[Ron Texas]

Back when I had to use Windows laptops, once Microsoft Store started selling "Signature" PCs without the OEM's bloatware load, I would only buy those machines. Much like I would only buy Google's phone back in Android days. Samsung hardware was great, but that software load... Using a Signature WinPC laptop vs. identical hardware with the OEM load was a day vs night experience.

Microsoft still selling Signature PCs or equivalent?

Microsoft sells surface laptops which I have been told are junk free. They are also on the pricey side.

 

[pablolie]

@Ze Frog high power consumption by GPU's is definitely a problem. CPU's keep getting more efficient while GPU's more power hungry. Desktop GPU's draw lots of power, hundreds of watts. Capping a 4070 at 100 watts probably doesn't do much by itself, but if it doesn't have good cooling there will be thermal throttling and a loss of performance. Asus makes a Zenbook with a 100 watt 4070 in a 14" screen size. The PSU is 200 watts so the laptop and PSU probably weigh around 5.5 lb together with isn't too bad. I wonder how it would do compared to a 145 watt 4070 in a 16" case with a high end cooling solution. You might look at the Puget Benchmark for Premiere Pro. It gives detailed information about the machines tested.

All true, but unless you're a gamer - who really needs a top GPU these days? They are very costly -you can't even get the real top models quite often- and as noted, they gobble up insane power, which means you need an even more expensive power supply etc etc... plus try keeping GPUs with a fan quiet if you load them up...

I actually go the opposite way, but that's also because I am in no way a gamer. I build my desktops with the best low-power CPU with integrated graphics I can get, which these days is -for me- an i7-xxxxxT. 35W of power with still a lot of CPU power for almost anything (except top gaming, and I never play games on any of my devices, I spent too much time on them as is). And I regularly edit and compile big videos, which would benefit from a better GPU but the price-performance-power-noise ratio to me isn't worth it. I can have a glass of wine or bug my cat while the job gets done, and one minute here or there doesn't change my life. Also - my home workstation(s) are on 24/7.

And from an audio point of view - it takes remarkably little CPU power to do pretty much everything with even 24/192 music streams.

PS: Anyone got one of these... :-D

https://www.newegg.com/p/1VK-0066-00022

 

[Ze Frog]

All true, but unless you're a gamer - who really needs a top GPU these days? They are very costly -you can't even get the real top models quite often- and as noted, they gobble up insane power, which means you need an even more expensive power supply etc etc... plus try keeping GPUs with a fan quiet if you load them up...

I actually go the opposite way, but that's also because I am in no way a gamer. I build my desktops with the best low-power CPU with integrated graphics I can get, which these days is -for me- an i7-xxxxxT. 35W of power with still a lot of CPU power for almost anything (except top gaming, and I never play games on any of my devices, I spent too much time on them as is). And I regularly edit and compile big videos, which would benefit from a better GPU but the price-performance-power-noise ration to me isn't worth it. I can have a glass of wine or bug my cat while the job gets done, and one minute here or there doesn't change my life. Also - my home workstation(s) are on 24/7.

I'm a big fan of low power builds myself and yeah, it's amazing what a entry level CPU and iGPU can do these days. That's definitely where the value to be had is. I only have a relatively powerful GPU because I do game, but that's mainly older games, so to be honest I could probably get away with the cheapest GPU in that regard. However I do creative stuff for various emulation etc where something a bit more powerful helps.

Also I don't upgrade frequently, I'll probably run current laptop for at least 5 years before deciding to debate wether an upgrade is needed. Also I got a really good deal as I brought laptop after the new stuff came out and a couple of months later companies give really good deals trying to get rid of the last generation, it's the way to do it for sure. I paid entry level 4050 laptop money for a 3070Ti laptop, absolute no brainer.

 

[Steve Dallas]

I've never met a software developer who's using Windows.

They all use Macs and some Linux

There is a reason all important software development (which is my job) is done on OSX

Like they say, it just works

I have been a director of software engineering for >20 years. This is wishful thinking. Windows machines have far outnumbered Macs throughout my career. I currently have 21 software engineers and 10 automation engineers. One of them is still running a Mac. Six of them turned in their Macs during this month's hardware refresh. That is a 30:1 ratio Windows:Mac.

 

[pablolie]

I have been a director of software engineering for >20 years. This is wishful thinking. Windows machines have far outnumbered Macs throughout my career. I currently have 21 software engineers and 10 automation engineers. One of them is still running a Mac. Six of them turned in their Macs during this month's hardware refresh. That is a 30:1 ratio Windows:Mac.

I agree SW development does not benefit from any particular OS. A lot of it is company culture, that's all. The tools are all web-based... Nifty, Jira, Github etc... the OS doesn't matter. If you're a good software developer, they'll give you whatever you like most, that's about it. If you're extremely good, you could probably ask for cuneiform clay tablets and stuff, and they'll humor you... :-D

 

[sweetchaos]

Well, that’s your experience.

My experience is different. My family relative is a software engineer, his program of over 30 peers all use Macs for development.

 

[pablolie]

Well, that’s your experience.

My experience is different. My family relative is a software engineer, his program of over 30 peers all use Macs for development.

It's the tools that matter, and they are equally accessible from any OS. Who uses what is just personal preference, and not based on what is really required or best to get the job done. People that label themselves "creative" seem to often think using a Mac advertises that to the world, even though there is zero differentiation these days, and their miguided preference to define themselves by branding makes them rather sheepish these days, IMO. Used to be when they ran those silly "PC vs Mac" ad campaigns. Anyone that still buys into that is misusing their brain cells on stuff that doesn't matter.

 

[sweetchaos]

Yes, it's a personal preference more than anything.

There's a reason why Microsoft introduced "Windows SubSystem for Linux (WSL)" in 2016, which is feature of Windows that allows developers to run a Linux environment without the need for a separate virtual machine or dual booting. They don't want their developers to use other OS's, and only stick to Windows.

 

[pablolie]

Yes, it's a personal preference more than anything.

There's a reason why Microsoft introduced "Windows SubSystem for Linux (WSL)" in 2016, which is feature of Windows that allows developers to run a Linux environment without the need for a separate virtual machine or dual booting. They don't want their developers to use other OS's, and only stick to Windows.

Not that it was particularly innovative. Everyone and their dog was probably already using VMware Player... :-D A mainstay on all my machines, but now with Broadcom having bought VMware I wonder about the continuity of that awesome tool (I own the paid Workstation version).

 

[Keith_W]

First, enterprise users have been slow to move from Win 10 to Win 11.

No kidding! Many computers in my old workplace resisted the move from Windows XP! I was surprised to see someone using it recently. He said he needed it for some software he is using that won't run on more modern machines.

Anyway, I am a huge fan of Lenovo. I am currently on a ThinkPad X1 Extreme, and I have been using ThinkPad X1's for years:

That is my old ThinkPad X301 and my retired X1 Carbon 2012. That X301 was what really sold me on ThinkPads - great keyboard for a laptop, can be user upgraded, everything can be accessed via screws and nothing is glued down. It came with the slimmest CD-ROM drive I have ever seen, and it was easy to remove it and replace it with a battery. Back in the day, wi-fi was not as common so it had a built-in 3G modem so that you could use dialup. I think the keyboard on the X301 is superior to any laptop I have ever owned or used, and it is even better than my current laptop. What I love most about it is the drip resistant keyboard. I once spilled water on it - I was surprised it shrugged it off and kept running without a glitch.

Whenever it is time to upgrade my laptop, I look to see what else is on the market and I end up choosing Lenovo ThinkPad X series over and over again. They are bulletproof and reliable.

 

[sweetchaos]

Not that it was particularly innovative. Everyone and their dog was probably already using VMware Player... :-D A mainstay on all my machines, but now with Broadcom having bought VMware I wonder about the continuity of that awesome tool (I own the paid Workstation version).

Broadcom may end their perpetual licenses for Vmware Workstation Player/Pro, and subscription licenses may be incoming.

Just like what Adobe did with their software.

For now, I'm using Vmware Workstation Pro (since I need snapshots), and enjoying it.

 

[Ron Texas]

@pablolie few really need a $1500 4090, but for half that price video editing with Premiere Pro is sped up quite a lot. Nvidia RTX 40X0 cards also have hardware ray tracing which makes Blender a lot faster. Not everybody edits video or uses Blender, I don't, but for those who do, the right tools save a lot of time. Integrated graphics other than on the New MacBooks work poorly with the most recent versions of Lightroom Classic and Photoshop. One doesn't need the fastest GPU's out there, but the difference between my MacBook Pro M3 Pro and the Iris Xe in my Gram 16 is huge. AI denies is 8 times faster. Likewise for AI masking. It depends a lot on what you are doing. However, most heavy lifting these days is done by GPU's.

There is also some professional 3d software which only runs correctly on the expensive workstation Nvidia GPU's. Consumer grade cards are crippled and will not run the pro drivers. I may not remember correctly, but open GL is what is crippled. I don't know if these applications run on the MacBook or how well they do. My MacBook has a 14 core GPU. It's available with 30 and 40 core GPU's for around $3300 and $4,000 respectively. There must be a market for that hardware and applications which can utilize the power.

 

[droid2000]

I have been a director of software engineering for >20 years. This is wishful thinking. Windows machines have far outnumbered Macs throughout my career. I currently have 21 software engineers and 10 automation engineers. One of them is still running a Mac. Six of them turned in their Macs during this month's hardware refresh. That is a 30:1 ratio Windows:Mac.

Weird. I can't imagine anyone preferring Windows for software development if they've also used a Mac. So much less friction. It could also depend on the location. In my experience Macs seem to dominate in Silicon Valley. But once you get outside that area I start seeing more Windows boxes. Especially Sacramento. Seems like everyone uses Windows and .net there