Revel in-wall speaker measurements…spinorama, in room, Audysey XT32

[Haint]

Here are some in room measurements. First is the speakers ran full range with no eq. Not sure why there is so much disparity in low end extension….I may need to see if one has a much larger wall cavity, or if there is perhaps a poor seal on one of them? Maybe its just the specific mic position for the measurement. This was measured some time ago…I'll have to take several measurements in multiple locations to see if the disparity remains.
View attachment 140335
Summary…not atrocious? The surround right has respectable extension in room down to 50 Hz…plenty for crossing to subs at 80 or higher. The other rolls off below 70…still not atrocious considering these are the smallest, cheapest in walls Revel makes.

I would suspect the discrepancy in the bass extension is the presence of a corner near the SR reinforcing while the small hallway and 2 doorways near the SL are diminishing it. Easy to see why they sounded bright without EQ, clearly broad deficiency below 1KHz and clear excess energy above 1KHz. Looks like they probably sound great with the EQ.

 

[dfuller]

Even the most mediocre in-wall speaker will measure better than Genelecs in-room due to the absence of SBIR.

Yeah I think eventually for my studio I'm going to flush mount my speakers specifically to avoid SBIR.

 

[Newman]

You might need to relocate them.

OK, I’m being cheeky.

cheers

 

[abdo123]

Wouldn't really create an absence of SBIR, the rear wall, ceiling, side walls, floor and any other large object in the room are still factors. The "front" wall (front being whatever wall the speaker is mounted in, so side walls for surrounds) is mitigated and that is a big one though certainly not the only offender.

thanks captain obvious.

but i think it also has an effect on the other walls because an infinite baffle speaker would radiate sound pressure differently than one with a baffle.

 

[abdo123]

Are there any panels you can install the speakers into? That way they can easily be moved around?

that’s … not what in wall speakers are for.

 

[AudioJester]

that’s … not what in wall speakers are for.

Maybe hes thinking of "on wall" speakers? Not sure Revel make any?

 

[abdo123]

Anyway, my understanding from Genelec and Neumann's doc is that SBIR isn't that severe when the speaker is either stuck very close to the wall or far enough (>= 1.2 m) with a subwoofer.

Most people confuse SBIR for room modes, but in reality the majority of response related issues are due to the front wall or the back wall because they receive the most sound power in the room (compared to ceiling, floor, side walls) and they are usually much closer to the listener/speaker than side walls or ceilings.

with side walls and ceilings it's feasible to get the distance traveled by the first reflection to be ~3.5 meters or longer so that the brain register it as echo, this is not the case for the front / back wall because most people just don't have that much space in their living spaces or put their TVs close to the wall.

Also SBIRs don't work on just one frequency or two, (although 1/4 wavelength is problematic because the cancellation is infinite in amplitude) they pretty much color the entire response till the room is not modal anymore.

a room's response is pretty much SBIR, LBIR and room axial modes.

 

[abdo123]

What I'd like to know is how LF directivity is affected when the wall is acoustically hard.

Like an infinite baffle speaker, instead of the frequencies envolping and pulsating from the baffle in an omni-directional/spherical direction it will be forward firing.

 

[radio3]

I’ve always wondered how the Elac Debut in walls compare to Debut box speakers with same drivers.

 

[q3cpma]

Like an infinite baffle speaker, instead of the frequencies envolping and pulsating from the baffle in an omni-directional/spherical direction it will be forward firing.

Well, I knew that, but I wonder how cleanly it'd match the woofer directivity.

 

[Bear123]

If the next house I buy(1-2 years) makes in walls feasible(i.e. no giant built in bookshelves, fireplace etc), I'll probably look into doing 5 channels of matching, high quality in walls such as Revel W893:

However, I would probably look into building appropriate sized and braced boxes to install into the wall cavities. Sure would add to the installation cost, since would require cutting really large holes, building boxes to fit, then patching the really large holes….at that point perhaps it would be cost effective to consider brands that include boxes such as Genelec?

 

[Tangband]

Even the most mediocre in-wall speaker will measure better than Genelecs in-room due to the absence of SBIR.

Focal has also gorgeous in-wall series.

But inwall loudspeakers have one fault - the sound will be ”flat” because of early reflections coming within 2 ms from the wall. Having high frequencys interfering with the wall is really bad for good sound quality.
You can get around the problem with a lot of rockwool on the wall, but thats not a practical solution.

Inwall loudspeakers is however perfect for cinema sound, when the picture is as flat as the sound.

SBIR is not a big problem in 2 channel playback and with good placement of the loudspeakers at least 60 cm from the wall, better sound will appear.

 

[Bear123]

But inwall loudspeakers have one fault - the sound will be ”flat” because of early reflections coming within 2 ms from the wall. Having high frequencys interfering with the wall is really bad for good sound quality.
You can get around the problem with a lot of rockwool on the wall, but thats not a practical solution.

Inwall loudspeakers is however perfect for cinema sound, when the picture is as flat as the sound.

SBIR is not a big problem in 2 channel playback and with good placement of the loudspeakers at least 60 cm from the wall, better sound will appear.

I'm not too sure about this? Pulling speakers out from the wall can actually make SBIR worse unless they are pulled out so far as to make it impractical in a real space. In a high fidelity system(subs, bass managed, eq), keeping speakers closer to the wall can lessen the effects of SBIR, and in wall eliminates the issue from the enclosure wall.

As far as early reflections, doesn't this include side wall, ceiling, and floor in a potentially beneficial way, whereas the reflection off the back wall is more harmful(SBIR)? You'd still get all those reflections from in walls speakers, other than the more harmful SBIR.

.6 meters will cause a cancellation at 143 Hz(not better sound)

 

[abdo123]

But inwall loudspeakers have one fault - the sound will be ”flat” because of early reflections coming within 2 ms from the wall.

there will be no reflections, the wall the speaker is mounted on becomes the baffle.

 

[testp]

Thanks for this. Thinking the same thing with my first floor since we are done with our kindergarten pod we are going to convert it to a family room with a projector and surround sound.
A couple if questions if you don't mind.
1)How did get them wired in wall and how complicated/expensive was it?
2) where can someone get a copy of Revels spin data for their speakers so I can pick which I want for Atmos duty?

Thanks. I'll have to seek or an electrician or home theater company to come take a look at my situation. Since I'm on a slab my options may be more complicated.

Thanks for sharing the post with the spin data

one version would be to also run the cables from speakers down to floor level, make a hole that can be covered with baseboard that has cable space reserved..

 

[enricoclaudio]

Maybe hes thinking of "on wall" speakers? Not sure Revel make any?

Revel Concerta M8 SP2s are on wall speakers. Also the Revel M55XC and M80XC while they are advertised as Extreme Climate (outdoors) speakers and kinda look more like bookshelf speakers, they could be considered as on wall speakers.

 

[Beershaun]

one version would be to also run the cables from speakers down to floor level, make a hole that can be covered with baseboard that has cable space reserved..

Thanks for the idea! I will definitely see if that will work.

 

[ROOSKIE]

thanks captain obvious.

but i think it also has an effect on the other walls because an infinite baffle speaker would radiate sound pressure differently than one with a baffle.

Howdy, you are the one who said "absence of SBIR", which is not true - so I wanted readership to be aware of that.
The other reflections are in effect, in wall installions remove the boundary/interference effect of the one wall they are mounted in.
As far as the "captain obvious", comment why be disrespectful? What is the point? Especially when you are not actually correct in your statements?

 

[Chromatischism]

Maybe hes thinking of "on wall" speakers? Not sure Revel make any?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_265S16WH/Revel-Concerta2-S16-High-Gloss-White.html

 

[ROOSKIE]

Revel Concerta M8 SP2s are on wall speakers. Also the Revel M55XC and M80XC while they are advertised as Extreme Climate (outdoors) speakers and kinda look more like bookshelf speakers, they could be considered as on wall speakers.

The Revel Concerta2 S16 is a good speaker to consider if looking at "on wall" options.