Which bookshelf crossover (non-DSP) provides highest performance under $2,500? Acoustic Energy AE1?

[voodooless]

It must be real fun living inside your head

 

[Ultrasonic]

I hope to define euphonic with precision (as a regular expression) that I can control from my RME DAC.

You can't, because you can't control things like harmonic distortion.

 

[RoA]

Thanks. I will certainly research them. B&W has an excellent reputation. I think I have a technique to precisely color speakers using my RME DAC.

Space is the constraining factor. Any speakers smaller than the exterior size ( 10" ) of my subwoofers is under consideration. I simply do not know enough.

You don't need a subwoofer with the Formation Duo in a small room.

 

[mononoaware]

Can you recommend a smaller one?

• I placed various empty boxes in my bedroom.
  • A 7" cube seemed most proportional for the room size.
  • 7" seems incrementally large enough when placed next to my A3s
  • My 10" (exterior size) subwoofers seem too big.

I just now read your earlier topic you mention having “2x Rel T-Zero Mkiii subwoofers” already.
So I guess you can get away with the smaller options. . .

I assume you are planning on connecting the Rel subwoofers to the RME DAC’s RCA outputs, then connecting the studio monitors to the RME’s XLR outputs.

 

[mel]

I just now read your earlier topic you mention having “2x Rel T-Zero Mkiii subwoofers” already.
So I guess you can get away with the smaller options. . .

I assume you are planning on connecting the Rel subwoofers to the RME DAC’s RCA outputs, then connecting the studio monitors to the RME’s XLR outputs.

Funny you should mention that. I was just looking at how to do that with the Genelec 8020D. The RELs do not have pass through.

 

[mel]

You can't, because you can't control things like harmonic distortion.

You can't, because you can't control things like harmonic distortion.

Granted. Let me qualify by saying the things that are within my control.

Right now, I just want to accomplish something very simple, that would make me very happy. If I can accomplish this, I have no reservations buying another pair of speakers.

• I played all of the Tidal "Ut Queant Laxis" search results.
  • I added the interesting ones to a playlist.
  • Ut Queant Laxis is basically the Do Re Me scales that are sung as words or played as music.
• I noticed my speakers do not output equal volume for the syllables in the scale.
  • I just want to use RME DAC parametric EQ to compensate for the inequality.

The chant is useful for teaching singing because of the way it uses successive notes of the scale: the first six musical phrases of each stanza begin on a successively higher notes of the hexachord, giving ut–re–mi–fa–so–la; though ut is replaced by do in modern solfège. The naming of the notes of the hexachord by the first syllable of each hemistich (half line of verse) of the first verse is usually attributed to Guido of Arezzo. Guido, who was active in the eleventh century, is regarded as the father of modern musical notation. He made use of clefs (C & F clefs) and invented the ut-re-mi-fa-sol-la notation. The hymn does not help with the seventh tone as the last line, Sancte Iohannes, breaks the ascending pattern. The syllable si, for the seventh tone, was added in the 18th century.

The first stanza is:

Ut queant laxis

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First verse of the hymn (Gregorian chant)
Problems playing this file? See media help.

Ut queant laxīs
resonāre fibrīs
Mīra gestōrum
famulī tuōrum,
Solve pollūtī
labiī reātum,
Sāncte Iōhannēs.
It may be translated: So that your servants may, with loosened voices, resound the wonders of your deeds, clean the guilt from our stained lips, O Saint John.

A paraphrase by Cecile Gertken, OSB (1902–2001) preserves the key syllables and loosely evokes the original meter:

Do let our voices
resonate most purely,
miracles telling,
far greater than many;
so let our tongues be
lavish in your praises,
Saint John the Baptist.[4]

 

[mel]

It must be real fun living inside your head

Except when the VooDoos in New Orleans cast their spell to turn me into a zombie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Voodoo#Deities

I love the Dire Straights song Planet of New Orleans. Tracking down the Voodoo locations in the song was spooky.

 

[mel]

I did a very crude test using a Radio Shack handheld sound meter, because I could tell by ear the loudness varied too much. Don't laugh too hard. I am very short on time, so this rough approximation must suffice for now. The loudness readings for the Do Re Mi scales seem skewed.

"So" was 0 dB. The others varied from -6 to +4dB.

I assume the scales should all be the same loudness, if the speaker coloration were neutral. Is my approach conceptually correct, or not?

This teaching track is on 55 seconds long. It couldn't be any easier to measure by or more clear to hear.

Ut -6 (Do)
Re -6
Mi -6
Fa +4
So 0
La -2

I used the RME DAC PEQ to make the loudness as equal as my patience permitted. I was able to make a substantial change. I consider this a success, as a proof of concept. Perfecting this technique might take some time.

• Let's say I brought all scales between -4 to +4dB by adjusting EQ strictly according to measurements.
  • except Fa at +6dB
• I was able to get a more euphonic sound by adjusting the EQ without looking at the sound meter.
  • This type of tweaking really tweaks my patience.
  • I can only do this on days when I am in a more patient mood, or have the appropriate tools.
  • I was stunned by the coloration differences.
• I think the difference between measurement and preference confirms the idea that coloration is a very good idea.
• I found measurements most useful to eliminate the excesses.
• I found tweaking by ear better for making the sound most euphonic.
• Out of frustration, I did some cleaning. Much to my surprise, the far field sound improved more than near field.

Next time, I can reduce the frustration by starting with wide dB intervals. Gradually, narrow the variation to some reasonable limits. Finally, optimize by ear.

One last note. I laid down in my bedroom and was amazed by how much more clear the sound is. It improved enough that just this one pair might suffice. I might not need another pair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_music_learning_theory#Audiation

Audiation is a term Gordon coined in 1975 to refer to comprehension and internal realization of music, or the sensation of an individual hearing or feeling sound when it is not physically present.[5] Musicians previously used terms such as aural perception or aural imagery to describe this concept, though aural imagery would imply a notational component while audiation does not necessarily do so.[6] Gordon suggests that "audiation is to music what thought is to language."[7] His research is based on similarities between how individuals learn a language and how they learn to make and understand music.[8] Gordon specifies that audiation potential is an element of music aptitude, arguing that to demonstrate music aptitude one must use audiation.[9]

Audiation and language[edit]
Gordon describes that audiation occurs when an individual is "listening to, recalling, performing, interpreting, creating, improvising, reading, or writing music."[10] Audiation while listening to music, he describes, is analogous to the simultaneous translation of languages, giving meaning to sound and music based on individual knowledge and experience.[11]

Gordon also emphasizes that music itself is not a language as it has no words or grammar, but rather has syntax, an "orderly arrangement of sounds, and context."[12]

 

[mel]

I do not actually know what I fixed, but the A3s are now perfectly suitable for use in my bedroom. I do not need to buy a pair of speakers for my bedroom. If I buy another pair, I would move the A3s into the bedroom. The main issue with buying a new pair of speakers is that I would need to rearrange my main living area and desk. I would not put larger speakers on my desk because the A3s are great for a desktop. The A3s work fine for the type of listening in my bedroom, too.

I hope this exercise in completed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_music_learning_theory#Audiation

Audiation is a term Gordon coined in 1975 to refer to comprehension and internal realization of music, or the sensation of an individual hearing or feeling sound when it is not physically present.[5] Musicians previously used terms such as aural perception or aural imagery to describe this concept, though aural imagery would imply a notational component while audiation does not necessarily do so.[6] Gordon suggests that "audiation is to music what thought is to language."[7] His research is based on similarities between how individuals learn a language and how they learn to make and understand music.[8] Gordon specifies that audiation potential is an element of music aptitude, arguing that to demonstrate music aptitude one must use audiation.[9]

Audiation and language[edit]
Gordon describes that audiation occurs when an individual is "listening to, recalling, performing, interpreting, creating, improvising, reading, or writing music."[10] Audiation while listening to music, he describes, is analogous to the simultaneous translation of languages, giving meaning to sound and music based on individual knowledge and experience.[11]

Gordon also emphasizes that music itself is not a language as it has no words or grammar, but rather has syntax, an "orderly arrangement of sounds, and context."[12]

 

[mononoaware]

The RELs do not have pass through.

Yes so you will have to send them full range signal from RME’s RCA outputs, and then adjust the REL’s crossover to integrate.
I am pretty sure RME is a professional product built to high-standards and they thought of every possible use, so outputting from RCA + XLR should be fine.

 

[mel]

Yes so you will have to send them full range signal from RME’s RCA outputs, and then adjust the REL’s crossover to integrate.
I am pretty sure RME is a professional product built to high-standards and they thought of every possible use, so outputting from RCA + XLR should be fine.

We think along the same lines. I appreciate the guidance.

 

[mononoaware]

We think along the same lines. I appreciate the guidance.

I have seen the user manual for the RME ADI-2 DAC.
It is extremely detailed and it seems they do not omit any information, so likely they have mentioned the simultaneous use of XLR + RCA somewhere in there.

To speed up the process I suggest looking for the official PDF manual from RME and using the “search/find” function of your browser in your attempt to find it.

 

[mel]

After imposing on my patience, I read the heavy RME users guide more thoroughly. The users guide is dense, yet informative. They advocate using the bass and treble to make minor adjustments. This habit has been drilled out of me.

I realized that I calibrated my speakers, like a piano is tuned. The effect was to change to effective listening range. I spend most of my time behind a computer. Small, high quality speakers suit me best. My speakers naturally offer an intimate experience. By tuning my speakers, I extended the effective listening distance. They sound much better at seven times the distance, or 21'. However, the speakers now need minor tweaking with the bass/treble controls at close distance.

 

[mel]

I have seen the user manual for the RME ADI-2 DAC.
It is extremely detailed and it seems they do not omit any information, so likely they have mentioned the simultaneous use of XLR + RCA somewhere in there.

To speed up the process I suggest looking for the official PDF manual from RME and using the “search/find” function of your browser in your attempt to find it.

This coincidence is very funny to me. We were simultaneously writing about the RME manual at the same time!

The font in the RME manual is too small, which I find very off-putting. Their manual requires concentration. The tiny font is a distraction.

 

[mononoaware]

However, the speakers now need minor tweaking with the bass/treble controls at close distance.

Well that is to be expected, and therefore most will keep their listening position fixed by using a “listening” chair etc.

I am not too fussy so I can move around the room while music is playing, and my mind can process the changes in sound and I am fine with that.

With enough testing and adjustments I’m sure you will find a good compromise between positions to keep the settings fixed.
Or maybe you are more fussy than I am. . .

 

[mel]

I am no audiophile. I am a music butterfly. I am too hyperactive to sit and listen to music for very long. Music is very pleasant and convenient in the background. When I encounter some remarkable music, I like to intently focus on it for a short period of time, but I never linger for long.

I think the Elac Navis ARB-51s would be great when I want to focus on one piece of music. I am not sure the marginal gains justify the cost and hassle of rearranging everything to accommodate the space for them. The Navis architecture probably is just as appealing as actually listening to them.

 

[mel]

Well that is to be expected, and therefore most will keep their listening position fixed by using a “listening” chair etc.

I am not too fussy so I can move around the room while music is playing, and my mind can process the changes in sound and I am fine with that.

With enough testing and adjustments I’m sure you will find a good compromise between positions to keep the settings fixed.
Or maybe you are more fussy than I am. . .

I am probably more fussy. But I hate dumping endless amounts of time into tweaking sound. I strongly resisted the PEQ, because I know what a huge time sink tweaking sound is.

I think if you break down listening into distance zones, you might be able to minimize the time spent fussing with balance. For me, that means:

• a 3 foot, intimate zone when behind the computer (background, far-field attention)
• a 21 foot zone when relaxing on my bed (background, far-field attention)
• a 12 foot zone when I want to temporarily focus on a piece of music (full, near-field attention)

 

[mononoaware]

I think the Elac Navis ARB-51s would be great when I want to focus on one piece of music. I am not sure the marginal gains justify the cost and hassle of rearranging everything to accommodate the space for them. The Navis architecture probably is just as appealing as actually listening to them.

I think one thing to be aware about the Navis is, it is likely designed with target audience as “HiFi” therefore “mid-field (1.5 to 2.5m+)” listening distances.

For those who enjoy listening at low-to-moderate volume levels. I would worry that I will not use enough of its “gain” to reach its “sweet spot”.
One video I watched awhile ago mentioned the Navis sounding “lifeless” and “dull” at low volumes, and at louder volumes it sounded like they expected, but then it was over powering the room.
Now this could be just one persons opinion, but it made sense to me when I heard the comment.
The person who made the comment returned Navis, and moved on to Genelec The Ones.

 

[mel]

I think one thing to be aware about the Navis is, it is likely designed with target audience as “HiFi” therefore “mid-field (1.5 to 2.5m+)” listening distances.

For those who enjoy listening at low-to-moderate volume levels. I would worry that I will not use enough of its “gain” to reach its “sweet spot”.
One video I watched awhile ago mentioned the Navis sounding “lifeless” and “dull” at low volumes, and at louder volumes it sounded like they expected, but then it was over powering the room.
Now this could be just one persons opinion, but it made sense to me when I heard the comment.
The person who made the comment returned Navis, and moved on to Genelec The Ones.

Yes, I agree, excellent point. I get the same impression. I think the Navis might fall into disuse.

 

[mel]

I think one thing to be aware about the Navis is, it is likely designed with target audience as “HiFi” therefore “mid-field (1.5 to 2.5m+)” listening distances.

For those who enjoy listening at low-to-moderate volume levels. I would worry that I will not use enough of its “gain” to reach its “sweet spot”.
One video I watched awhile ago mentioned the Navis sounding “lifeless” and “dull” at low volumes, and at louder volumes it sounded like they expected, but then it was over powering the room.
Now this could be just one persons opinion, but it made sense to me when I heard the comment.
The person who made the comment returned Navis, and moved on to Genelec The Ones.

I tried to find the sensitivity ratings, but they are not readily accessible. I did find this in the owners manual:

Gain Adjustment (GAIN) - This adjustment allows you to match the input sensitivity of the speaker to the gain of your system. If when setting your volume level you cannot turn the system up loud enough use the HIGH setting,
if alternatively you find that the speaker is too loud at a moderate volume control setting then use the LOW setting.