Audiofools turned objectivists or vice-versa?

[Angsty]

I’ve never understood ‘high end’ audio gear in terms of status symbols. If you have a nice car or watch, those are portable status symbols that many people get to see. But audio stuff? Do audiophiles go to bars and tell strangers that they just spent thousands of dollars on speaker wire? I think people would back slowly away…

It's pretty easy really - you just have to cultivate audiophile aspirant friends and invite them over. As for me, I can't tell a Patek Philippe from a Bulova, but I can spot the difference between a Wilson and Magico from a mile away.

Tell a stranger in a bar that you're wearing a Patek and you could get knocked in the head, awaking to a naked wrist!

 

[richard12511]

It's pretty easy really - you just have to cultivate audiophile aspirant friends and invite them over. As for me, I can't tell a Patek Philippe from a Bulova, but I can spot the difference between a Wilson and Magico from a mile away.

Tell a stranger in a bar that you're wearing a Patek and you could get knocked in the head, awaking to a naked wrist!

Which would you rather have, WAMM Master Chronosonic, or M9?

 

[xaviescacs]

10 years ago I went to a hifi store to buy an integrated. I had no idea at all about any audio measurement. I had a pair of Audiovectors at home. The amps were from the following brands: Yamaha, Marantz, Rotel and Denon. They salesmen made a quick demonstration of each using the same speakers, with an RCA switch I believe. The differences were objectively immediate among all or at least some of them, I don't remember the exact details. I specifically remember that the Denon and the Marantz sounded very different. I ended up buying the Marantz, simply because I liked it more, it sounded more mellow, perhaps what it's been called warmth, not sure. Had they all sounded equal, I don't know what I would've done. But they sounded different and I could make a choice. Perhaps the salesmen wanted me to buy the Marantz and willingly set up a horrible EQ setting in the rest that I didn't notice, but I very much doubt it. This is why I imagine they don't do much of the same demonstrations with DACs or CD players, as people would start thinking twice of what's going on there. My experience from there is that amplification and speakers/headphones do matter, and you can't buy one without listening first.

Now that I have more neutral gear, I suspect that the Marantz is simply tweaked to win those kind of comparisons in front of someone that just wants an amp to replace a broken one to be able to play music again.

It's not an easy journey to start trusting measurements and papers more than your own ears, it takes time and involves a lot of emotions. After all, we are emotional beings. In that sense, the video of Ethan Winer made a difference to me. The poor guy is so upset and emotional about this, that I just can't buy an expensive cable anymore or I wouldn't be able to look him in the eye. Ethan, I trust you, I'm going to buy the Cordials, the marketing claims in the packaging of which include (I didn't expect this): Cables don't have a "sound"; silver isn't better than copper; No technical hype, no empty marketing promise. Just your sound, sweet and true to the source.

 

[Mart68]

I suppose I was fortunate in that I simply didn't have the money to spend on boutique components and foo until I was in my early forties.

By that time I'd already educated myself on how sound reproduction actually worked, figuring that if I understood that I could come up with cheaper solutions to get better sound.

Understanding that it's not a 'music signal' traveling through those interconnects and loudspeaker cables but plain old electricity was the turning point for me. It's one thing to understand that on an intellectual level, but it's only when it is understood on an emotional level that thinking and consequently behaviour patterns change and a more rational approach starts to make sense.

That will probably sound ridiculous to those steeped in a science and engineering background from an early age, but that really is the difference for those of is who were not.

This is why just telling someone that 'You're doing it all wrong' rarely works. They have to come to that conclusion on their own. It's also why there is so much kickback against audio sites like this. Those attacks are emotionally driven, not intellectually driven.

 

[Mystical Boar]

It's also why there is so much kickback against audio sites like this. Those attacks are emotionally driven, not intellectually driven.

I agree and I once said the same thing. It’s like with religion; people get emotionally dependent on it and their intellect comes up with excuses to keep them in denial. You can’t win with facts and logic as the other side is emotionally biased and will cling to every dim shadow of proof.

 

[gsp1971]

I ended up buying the Marantz, simply because I liked it more, it sounded more mellow, perhaps what it's been called warmth, not sure.

Assuming all four amps had a flat response from 20Hz - 20kHz, as most solid state amps do these days, will someone more technically adept please explain to me, from an engineering viewpoint, which component inside the amplifier is the one that makes the sound warm or cold?

 

[Helicopter]

Assuming all four amps had a flat response from 20Hz - 20kHz, as most solid state amps do these days, will someone more technically adept please explain to me, from an engineering viewpoint, which component inside the amplifier is the one that makes the sound warm or cold?

Its the brand. Marantz is warm. Sansui is sweet. Everyone knows that. You have to know which amp is playing and that will help your brain integrate sight and sound so you perceive warmth. Tubes are even warmer because of the glow. Don't you know anything about psychoacoustics?

 

[Ken1951]

You are a long way out there. 50 years ago the source was very variable. It has been maybe 30 years with a potentially transparent source.

Absolutely. When I worked in HiFi in the early-mid 70's it was all about cartridges and turntables along with various tape machines, as that was the sound determiner, other than speakers of course. Nobody gave a second thought about cables. Amps were compared by specs and reliability. New products went straight into the shop to see how they compared to manufacturer spec.

 

[gsp1971]

Tubes are even warmer because of the glow. Don't you know anything about psychoacoustics?

I can understand tubes are warmer cause they emit light and light makes you feel warm.

 

[Zensō]

Assuming all four amps had a flat response from 20Hz - 20kHz, as most solid state amps do these days, will someone more technically adept please explain to me, from an engineering viewpoint, which component inside the amplifier is the one that makes the sound warm or cold?

I’m not technically adept, but this very well could have been a difference in volume (most likely) or distortion levels.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Absolutely. When I worked in HiFi in the early-mid 70's it was all about cartridges and turntables along with various tape machines, as that was the sound determiner, other than speakers of course. Nobody gave a second thought about cables. Amps were compared by specs and reliability. New products went straight into the shop to see how they compared to manufacturer spec.

Still that way into the early to mid 80s. I replaced a Dynaco SCA-80Q I built the fall of '73 from a kit with an H/K PM-650 Integrated Amp in 1984 at a Hifi shop in Marietta, Georgia with some of the wedding money we got a few months earlier (I've no recollection of how I talked my wife into that) and before walking out of the shop they put the one I bought on their bench and measured it. Was a little better than rated watts per channel and THD than the specs. BTW, it may have been early '85 as I recall the sales guy demoing a CD player which I almost talked my wife into buying as she was a vocal performance major in college and a huge classical music fan and they demoed with some classical CD that had her entranced with how "quiet" and dynamic it sounded. Almost. It was another year or two before we got our first CD player, IIRC.

 

[BluesDaddy]

I’m not technically adept, but this very well could have been a difference in volume (most likely) or distortion levels.

My initial reaction. Salesmen, as a gross generalization, have never been above resorting to a few well know "tricks" to push equipment that has a higher margin for the store and provides them a greater commission. Ever so slight volume difference, even engaging the loudness setting in earlier days, for the piece they were pushing.

 

[Rotiv]

The love for music turn me in a audiofool, the audiofool pushed me away from music. But the love for music was to strong, enough to enable my beliefs in to other diretions. It's not easy but most gratifying!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Is objectivists a positive term?

Is there a negative term to describe certain objectivists who behave like audiofools in a certain way?

 

[welsh]

I was once interested in the occult and as a result weird things happened to me. After that, I became interested in audio; little did I know...

I was once interested in weird things and as a result the occult happened to me.

 

[welsh]

That requirement was in our pre-nup.

I actually believe that the ‘wife from the kitchen endorsement‘ sometimes actually happens. The wife notices the signs - her husband spending ‘research’ time on the interweb, then hanging excitedly around the front door… then the longed-for parcel arrives, and wifey hears the familiar test tracks being played in the den. Being a dutiful spouse (with, no doubt, her own spending agenda) she reinforces the audio tweak.

 

[xaviescacs]

My initial reaction. Salesmen, as a gross generalization, have never been above resorting to a few well know "tricks" to push equipment that has a higher margin for the store and provides them a greater commission. Ever so slight volume difference, even engaging the loudness setting in earlier days, for the piece they were pushing.

Thanks for your feedback. I wasn't really expecting an explanation, just explained what happened. I do remember the Denon sounding a bit harsh in comparison. Do you all discard that the Marantz has some attenuation in the high frequencies? I think their claim is not transparency but enjoyment.

I've been looking for two amps reviewed here and I found the following.

This a Denon reviewed here:

And this is a Marantz:

In your experience, can't this two devices sound different? Or all of this is inaudible? To me it looks like the Denon favours high frequencies whereas the Marantz attenuates them a bit. 1 or 2 db isn't much but I think is quite something, at least from experience with EQ. Isn't that what they call the sound signature of the amp?

Assuming all four amps had a flat response from 20Hz - 20kHz, as most solid state amps do these days, will someone more technically adept please explain to me, from an engineering viewpoint, which component inside the amplifier is the one that makes the sound warm or cold?

Don't know about the components, but this two amps have very different frequency response curves, so there must be something there. To clarify, to me cold means that high frequencies dominate and the opposite for warm.

 

[welsh]

The customer's ?

No, she makes me stay in the kitchen when she turns up with a client. It’s tough, but how else am I going to achieve ‘summit fi’?

 

[BluesDaddy]

Thanks for your feedback. I wasn't really expecting an explanation, just explained what happened. I do remember the Denon sounding a bit harsh in comparison. Do you all discard that the Marantz has some attenuation in the high frequencies? I think their claim is not transparency but enjoyment.

I've been looking for two amps reviewed here and I found the following.

This a Denon reviewed here:

View attachment 137742

And this is a Marantz:

View attachment 137743

In your experience, can't this two devices sound different? Or all of this is inaudible? To me it looks like the Denon favours high frequencies whereas the Marantz attenuates them a bit. 1 or 2 db isn't much but I think is quite something, at least from experience with EQ. Isn't that what they call the sound signature of the amp?

I know I would not hear that difference in frequency response, though I'm not sure those graphs are apples to apples. Down .7 db over the span of those 10khz doesn't strike me as problematic, though the Denon's rise strikes me as resulting in a "bright" sound. Still, not sure I would hear it with my 65 year old ears and certainly doubt most adult humans over the age of 25 or so would find the Marantz's slight rolloff audible.

 

[welsh]

My finger slipped and I bought the D70s. Now, I'm trying to convince myself it sounds different enough from my 16 year-old DAC that I should not send it back.

I have the NON MQA D90. I do not anticipate ever buying another DAC (unless, of course, it breaks in some way).