Apple lossless official announcement

[markb]

Ahh yes, I see, thanks for that.


Ok, after some logistics, here we are. Upgraded 2017 iMac Pro to macOS 11.4 as I hadn't done that yet. Tried it and 2019 MacBook Pro 16" on same OS version. Used Senny HD650 and Sony Z1R direct from audio out and also via USB-connected Chord Mojo DAC. I ran both uncorrected (so with Sonarworks off). I don't have AirPods Pro or Max.
[snip]
The iMac Pro is indeed unsupported, per Apple's advice. Worth a try. Atmos worked on the MacBook via the headphone jack, but not via the DAC. Interesting. The difference with Atmos on or off was entirely obvious, once I listened to the combination that actually worked (I got to that last—as you do—I did wonder about my ear/brain until then).

Indeed, same experience here; with MacOS 11.4 on my MBP 16", Atmos seems to work on its analog headphone out, but it won't offer it up digitally to external devices. Neither my RME ADI-2 Pro FS nor my Shure AONIC 50 headphones over USB-C get spatial audio, just lossless. Switching output to the Shure AONIC50 over Bluetooth won't do it either. I'm gonna guess that with some Airpods or Beats it would work.

I wonder why, on my iPad Atmos works just fine with external DACs.

 

[voodooless]

If Apple doesn't think their 3.5mm DAC components are "lossless" quality, why should we?

That whole statement in the FAQ section is wrong. There is no analogue to digital conversion in the cable. There probably is one, but that in the AirPods though, so that most of the processing can still be used.

 

[hmscott]

That whole statement in the FAQ section is wrong. There is no analogue to digital conversion in the cable. There probably is one, but that in the AirPods though, so that most of the processing can still be used.

No, that cable is a length extended 3.5mm Apple Dongle DAC. If you look at the photo's at the link provided in the quote you will see the Lightening end has the DAC module, like the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC.

Remember that Apple Devices no longer have their own internal DAC or analog audio output.

Both are "great" $9 DAC's - the "length extended" one costs $35, but not at all up to the quality of a good DAC+Headphone Amplifier we "Audiophiles" would use to connect our "Audiophile" headphones for listening to FLAC files or equivalent / better streaming services.

If you are using the Apple *POD*'s and Apple Dongle DAC's - either length - then you are not going to get the benefits of a Lossless Streaming or FLAC source file are able to provide in comparison to a using a higher resolution "Audiophile" DAC + Headphone Amplifier.

If you really want to get full value from your Apple Lossless listening - and you're $500-$1K+ Apple Device - then you owe it to yourself to do some research and get a better DAC / headphone amplifier.

 

[voodooless]

No, that cable is a length extended 3.5mm Apple Dongle DAC.

DAC != ADC

If you really want to get full value from your Apple Lossless listening then you owe it to yourself to do some research on a better DAC / headphone amplifier.

I never said you would get full value out of the Apple dongle. I specially said it would be fine upto 24/48. “Fine” is not full value. 24/48 is not enough for all tracks. And no, it not good as a Swiss Army knife headphone amp.. it’s 9$.. get over it.

 

[hmscott]

DAC != ADC

When connecting either cable to the Apple Airpods MAX you aren't listening to the Original lossless Digital Data, as that Original Data has gone through Conversions derived from the Original Apple Lossless Music data!

Spoiler: Click to see another more comprehensive explanation:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ing-the-lightning-cable.2281545/post-29539732

LeonPro macrumors 6502a, Jan 24, 2021
"To be honest that's not the best way to get hi-res audio.

I have two AirPods Max and purchased the 3.5mm cable. I collect headphones and have Balanced DAC (digital to analog converter) and headphone amps.

I know people are saying wired is the best way to go which is true for all headphones capable of a direct analog connection. Not the Max.

Here's why:

AirPods Max only takes digital connection. Period. There is no analog input. None.

All audio coming into the Max is digital. It is the built-in DAC of the Max that does the conversion to it's speakers. There is no by-passing it.

Apple offers the 3.5mm cable as a matter of convenience for those who want it. That's the reason why they didn't include the cable in the package. They don't encourage doing it.

Here's what happens.

(1) Your electronic device converts digital signal to analog to the 3.5mm port.

(2) And then that 3.5mm to Lightning cable takes that analog signal and turns it back into digital.

(3) The AirPods Max takes that digital signal and turns it into analog for the speakers.

That's one too many conversions than a simple straight digital signal from your computer/iPhone/iPad fed to your AirPods Max directly.

The cable is good for Airplane travel. That's it. If you have to use the cable at home, I would use it with a DAC and use the pre-amp output. Not the variable headphone jack.

Until Apple builds an direct analog input, the best sound you can get is via AAC digital wireless input. The AirPods Max knows how to decode it and bring it back to sounding full."

I never said you would get full value out of the Apple dongle. I specially said it would be fine upto 24/48. “Fine” is not full value. 24/48 is not enough for all tracks. And no, it not good as a Swiss Army knife headphone amp.. it’s 9$.. get over it.

Again, IMHO the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC is not the best way to listen to Apple Lossless Music, and I certainly wouldn't use them to compare and/or decide the value of Apple's Lossless Music service with them.

 

[voodooless]

And, then the Airpods Max converts from Analog to Digital (ADC) before playing through the Airpods MAX headphone "speakers"!

But that is not what the FAQ says.. they talk about the analogue to digital conversation in the cable.. which clearly isn’t there.

given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable

IMHO the Apple 3.5mm Dongle DAC is not the best way to listen to Apple Lossless Music

Once again you make assumptions about things I said. Where did I say it was?

 

[KeithPhantom]

Bought back the AirPods Max since I want to reduce the amount I have of music gear. I trimmed all my stuff to the AirPods Max and Pro, the Blessing 2, and the Qudelix 5K. I will test some of the Atmos mixes on the Max and see the differences they have compared to the Pro.

 

[hmscott]

But that is not what the FAQ says.. they talk about the analogue to digital conversation in the cable.. which clearly isn’t there.

You are having a mental block on what Apple are saying in that About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support document, because what Apple stated is the truth:

Again, Apple iPhone / iPad Devices don't provide an Analog Audio output, so Apple needed to provide cables that do the Digital to Analog conversion, from the Apple Device Digital output to the 3.5mm Analog Audio output.

"Can I listen to lossless audio using the AirPods Max Lightning to 3.5mm Audio Cable?
The Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable was designed to allow AirPods Max to connect to analog sources for listening to movies and music. AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless recordings with exceptional audio quality. However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable, the playback will not be completely lossless."

What Apple is saying is that the AirPods Max accepts an analog input source via the Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable, and because the Apple iPhone/iPad Devices don't have an Analog output, Apple needed to provide a ADC/DAC in their "audio" cable.

Please read the post(s) at this link for additional explanation: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ing-the-lightning-cable.2281545/post-29539732 - I posted this link in the "Spoiler" in my previous post, click it for that post text and link.

 

[mononoaware]

sounded inferior with respect to the spatial representation of the soundstage/mix as discussed, but not with respect to other things I didn't notice or describe. For example, I didn't focus on individual instruments to decide whether cymbals (say) were more or less realistic, and so on.

Understood.

I thought a bit more about whether it replicates a good stereo speaker presentation.

Sorry I brought “stereo speaker presentation” up about the SXFI Air since that is what Creative claims SXFI achieves, but as I understand it Apple’s Atmos mixes claim to be one step above that and claim to give you a “multi-channel” experience.

I think it is a good idea to stick to the topic of “Dolby Atmos” in this thread to avoid confusion.

 

[hmscott]

Bought back the AirPods Max since I want to reduce the amount I have of music gear. I trimmed all my stuff to the AirPods Max and Pro, the Blessing 2, and the Qudelix 5K. I will test some of the Atmos mixes on the Max and see the differences they have compared to the Pro.

How are you driving the Airpods Max? Through the 3.5mm audio input, or via Bluetooth? Either way that Original Apple Lossless data is going through at least 2 conversions before sound comes out of the AirPods Max.

When connecting an Apple Airpods MAX to an Apple Device - iPhone / iPad - with the Apple Lightning to 3.5 mm Audio Cable you aren't listening to the Original lossless Digital Data, as that data goes through 2 conversions (DAC and ADC) before the music comes out of the iPods Max "Speakers".

If you are using Bluetooth, you have less bandwidth to transfer the Apple Lossless data:
About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

"Can I listen to lossless audio using AirPods, AirPods Pro, or AirPods Max?
AirPods, AirPods Pro, AirPods Max, and Beats wireless headphones use Apple’s AAC Bluetooth Codec to ensure excellent audio quality. Bluetooth connections don’t support lossless audio."

"Can I listen to lossless audio over Bluetooth?
We will deliver music using lossless audio compression to your iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Apple TV. Lossless will play back normally on Bluetooth speakers and headphones. However, Bluetooth connections don’t support lossless audio."

"What you need to know about lossless in Apple Music

• AirPods, AirPods Pro, AirPods Max, and Beats wireless headphones use Apple AAC Bluetooth Codec to ensure excellent audio quality. However, Bluetooth connections aren't lossless."

The Original Apple Lossless Data goes through 2 Conversions - Digital to Analog via the Apple Dongle DAC "cable" - or via using your own DAC, and then again inside the AirPods Max does an Analog to Digital conversion of the Analog Audio from the 3.5mm input as the AirPods Max needs to convert to a digital signal to internally process the data before outputting through the internal AirPods Max "speakers".

For Bluetooth there is a "down sampling" of the Apple Lossless source in the iPhone or in another Bluetooth device - even LDAC won't be "fast enough" to transmit the full 24/44.1 or higher, Apple Lossless Source data.

So no matter the input - 3.5mm Analog Audio, or Bluetooth Audio - to the Apple AirPods Max, there is currently no way to get full Apple Lossless Music data integrity.

There is a chance that in the future Apple might get around Bluetooth data transmission limitations and use a modified Wifi transmission, but it isn't clear Apple thought of that when designing AirPods, AirPods Pro, AirPods Max, and Beats wireless headphones originally.

You would probably be better with wireless headphones / TWS's that support Bluetooth LDAC for wireless, and pure analog audiophile headphones for wired listening.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Original Apple Lossless

I don't even use Lossless anymore. I can't detect any difference between AAC and ALAC (when tested with my Blessing 2 and Qudelix 5K wired), so I don't care. Also, AAC has better loading speeds when using cellular and I can download more music as well. AAC is really good, and I am happy that it exists.

 

[mononoaware]

it's interesting that you found the Atmos mixes of certain tracks to be superior without Atmos capable gear,

Creative SXFI with PCM stereo (not Atmos) is the experience I shared which was positive.
Sorry for the confusion I will do my best not to mention it again.
I think it is better for the thread to stick to the topic of Apple’s “Dolby Atmos” and it’s experience through both headphones and a proper multi-channel Atmos speaker system (and other devices which users have interest in).

 

[voodooless]

You are having a mental block on what Apple are saying

No, the only one having a mental block is you not understanding what I’m saying. I know very well how it works, and said as much in this post already. The point remains: the FAQ is factually incorrect. Once more, it says:

given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable

Again, “in the cable”.. the cable (or actually the connector) contains a DAC, not an ADC! The ADC is part of the headphones. That is my whole point, nothing more. It’s incorrect and should be changed. It’s very clear that there is no way to get lossless or bit-perfect data into the AirPod Max. I never said otherwise.

 

[hmscott]

I don't even use Lossless anymore. I can't detect any difference between AAC and ALAC (when tested with my Blessing 2 and Qudelix 5K wired), so I don't care. Also, AAC has better loading speeds when using cellular and I can download more music as well. AAC is really good, and I am happy that it exists.

And, that is why Apple Lossless hasn't done anyone any favors - as it is doing it's best to downgrade the sound so it doesn't sound different, Apple even predisposes customers to not expect any audible difference, even when going from 256kbit/sec AAC to 1.44mbit/sec 16/44.1:

"Apple has developed its own lossless audio compression technology called Apple Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC). In addition to AAC, the entire Apple Music catalog is now also encoded using ALAC in resolutions ranging from 16-bit/44.1 kHz (CD Quality) up to 24-bit/192 kHz.

While the difference between AAC and lossless audio is virtually indistinguishable, we’re offering Apple Music subscribers the option to access music in lossless audio compression."
About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Apple AAC is far and away not the same sounding - if you have adequate equipment to resolve the higher bit rate of 16/44.1k to 24/192k recordings:

"A 256 kbps AAC file is encoded with a target bit rate of 256 kilobits/second."
Apple Digital Masters 2.4.1 (Oasis)

Understanding Sample Rate, Bit Depth, and Bit Rate - Headphonesty :

• 44.1kHz/16-bit: 44,100 x 16 x 2 = 1,411,200 bits per second (1.4Mbps)
• 192kHz/24bit: 192,000 X 24 X 2 = 9,216,000 bits per second (9.2Mbps)

Why would Apple pay all that money to host and deliver those high bit rates - Apple is potentially greatly increasing it's Internet Data transfers to Millions of People that adopt Lossless Streaming.

If Apple Customer's are only using Apple Products they that cannot get the full Lossless Data benefit, so why spend all that $ on hosting and transferring it over the Internet to Apple Customer Devices??

I think Apple is heading off the other Lossless Services by showing it's customers there isn't "any" difference while listening with Apple equipment, and eventually Apple will drop their Lossless tier, and Apple Customers will feel smug knowing Apple's inferior products won't show any improvement anyway, so why switch to other Lossless Streaming Services?

I don't think Apple has released their Apple Music Lossless Tier to steal customers from other Lossless Services already serving Audiophiles, who can already hear the difference.

No, the only one having a mental block is you not understanding what I’m saying.

@voodooless - Yes, I see what you are saying now, this line:

"However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable, the playback will not be completely lossless."

...should have been written:

However, given the analog-to-digital conversion in the [AirPods Max], the playback will not be completely lossless."

Nice find, please notify Apple so they can change their text in that FAQ, sorry I didn't get what you were trying to communicate earlier.

Next time please write the original sentence and the modified sentence as I did above, that makes the error and change you are referring to much clearer.

 

[leonidas]

Yes, absolutely. Relative to AirPods Max, don't know.

Edit: but only direct from the MacBook headphone jack, not via the USB DAC I tried which didn't do the Atmos, see above.

Hold the phone: tried iPhone to external DAC (the same Chord Mojo) via the CCK (Lightning to USB 'camera connection kit') and Atmos playback worked.

I know that Atmos/spatial works through dac/amp on an iPhone as I can distingush between normal and Atmos versions through the toggle under settings/music…

I ask myself if Apple does „some magic“ in the Airpods electronics to enhance the spatial sensation which are not possible to be reproduced through external dac/amp & classic wired headphone?

 

[voodooless]

While the difference between AAC and lossless audio is virtually indistinguishable, we’re offering Apple Music subscribers the option to access music in lossless audio compression."

Well, at least they are the only one honest about this. It is virtually indistinguishable to 99.99% of the people.

I don't think Apple has released their Apple Music Lossless Tier to steal customers from other Lossless Services already serving Audiophiles, who can already hear the difference.

No, audiophiles only think they can hear the difference. Very, very few will pass a double blind test, and even then with specific tracks that are notoriously hard to compress. The major reason to release lossless is because Spotify will do it. Now they were first, and they will steal away customers. Probably not the audiophiles, but that is a very small minority of users anyway, so not the focus point. I doubt they will stop offering lossless anytime soon. Usually they commit to something for longer time.

But yes, this first iteration is far from perfect. I guess they had to rush quite some things to beat Spotify timing wise.

@voodooless - Yes, I see what you are saying now,

Good to see

 

[Zensō]

Well, at least they are the only one honest about this. It is virtually indistinguishable to 99.99% of the people.

No, audiophiles only think they can hear the difference. Very, very few will pass a double blind test, and even then with specific tracks that are notoriously hard to compress. The major reason to release lossless is because Spotify will do it. Now they were first, and they will steal away customers. Probably not the audiophiles, but that is a very small minority of users anyway, so not the focus point. I doubt they will stop offering lossless anytime soon. Usually they commit to something for longer time.

But yes, this first iteration is far from perfect. I guess they had to rush quite some things to beat Spotify timing wise.

Good to see

Agreed. Multiple studies have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that in normal listening 256 AAC is transparent to 16/44.1 for almost all people, regardless of the equipment used or the listening experience of the person undergoing the test. What we have with Apple Lossless, Tidal HiFi, Amazon HD, Spotify HiFi, Qobuz et al, is pure marketing, designed to take advantage of placebo and FOMO to establish market differentiation. At least Apple acknowledges there is essentially no audible difference, which can’t be said for Tidal, Qobuz, and others with their flowery BS language. The irony is that after all this wrestling, we once again have a level playing field with lossless taking the place of 256 AAC and 320 Ogg Vorbis as the de facto streaming standard, while in reality the customer has gained virtually nothing.

 

[vhild§]

What I loved about Tidal’s marketing was when they said lossless ”doesn’t stress the brain” as much as compressed music.

 

[voodooless]

Agreed. Multiple studies have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that in normal listening 256 AAC is transparent to 16/44.1 for almost all people, regardless of the equipment used or the listening experience of the person undergoing the test.

I’d wager that the same goes for 24/44.1. Apple uses 24 bit files as input for the AAC encoder in most cases anyway.

 

[Zensō]

What I loved about Tidal’s marketing was when they said lossless ”doesn’t stress the brain” as much as compressed music.

It’s their marketing that stresses the brain.