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How would you design the Ultimate Magnepan?

TitaniumTroy

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First off this is not a troll post, as I have Magnepan 3.6s. I just wanted to get some input from Amir or other members. I mentioned Amir because I know he is not a planer fan anymore (though I think he used to be), resonance's is the main problem he mentioned in the past. So that would be a good place to start, also lets skip the problems of being able to play loud, with impact, and very low frequency music. If you want those three things, you need to move onto another type of speaker IMO.

Magnepan's solution to resonances in the MG20 series is to have the quasi ribbon midrange and woofer section on separate sheets of mylar. In addition both sections use a push-pull magnetic structure, Analysis Audio of Greece uses a surround suspension for the same reason.

Over at the Planer Asylum, several members have, tweaked their Maggies by applying Dynamat to the metal perforated sheet, the side without magnents (called Razoring). Plus adding rope caulk to spaces in the wood frame, my Magnepan came with an after market steel stand (Mye Stands) to control their vibrations, not sure if it is effective but it's their non the less.

Any other solutions to the resonance bugaboo? Also if you could combine all these in one speaker, would it be good enough? Magnepan has said the only thing they could do to make them better would be to use a steel frame.

Another Magnepan solution in the past was the Tympanni speaker which in most configurations used three panels, which could physically separate the bass panels from the mid and treble. Problem being it's now as big as barn door. However the midbass was supposed to have been incredible.

I used Magnepan's as and example planer wise, because I really like the ribbon tweeter. Also the dipolar bass, sounds better than what I have heard from ML. However Sanders speakers, Transmission line sounded very good to me at AXPONA but their narrow sweetspot was a deal breaker for me. GT Audio makes a hybrid true ribbon/quasi ribbon, sealed woofer speaker I really want to hear some day, and those huge Gryphon Pendragons Ron Resnick has and not to mention Graz's modded Apogee speakers.
 

RayDunzl

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When I google Magnepan Repair and see what is inside, I don't get a warm feeling...
 

AJ Soundfield

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First off this is not a troll post, as I have Magnepan 3.6s. I just wanted to get some input from Amir or other members. I mentioned Amir because I know he is not a planer fan anymore (though I think he used to be), resonance's is the main problem he mentioned in the past. So that would be a good place to start
Ok.
So this would apply to Amir as well.
What resonances?

cheers,

AJ
 

DonH56

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Which resonances? There are several possibilities, with different causes and effects, and solutions.

As for other improvements, I have a laundry list, most of which are physically realizable... Many of the issues Maggies have are shared by ESLs and other planar dipolar speakers.
 

amirm

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What you see on the frequency response of the Martin Logan as measured by Harman:

Harman%2520Listening%2520Tests.jpg


Troy is going by my ML comment, not Maggies.
 

AJ Soundfield

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I was afraid of that.:)
Toole and Olive said much the same, yes?
LoudspeakerMeasurements+-TrainedvsUntrained.png

"M" being Martin Logans.

Ok, ML Montis:

912Montisfig2.jpg

Very much the same kind of response, a bit peaked above the panel XO (300hz here vs what looks to be around 200hz in the Harman model). Lots of "resonances" in the panel output as with the Harman measurements.
Would you agree with this assessment Amir, that the Montis exhibits the same type of resonances?
 

amirm

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The Harman measurements are from anechoic chamber. Not sure where you got the last one from. Regardless, make your point for heaven's sake and not turn everything into yet another argument with someone. You think the anechoic measurements show or don't show panel resonances? And back them up please with references. 'cause right now you are implying you know more than Dr. Toole and Olive on the use of this term.
 
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TitaniumTroy

TitaniumTroy

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Personally the only panels resonances I ever have noticed, was with my old Magnepan MGIIIA's (circa 1988). Which had a panel buzz in the bass, but only once in a blue moon. When playing some ambient type new age music, that had long sustained notes. This could have been due to the wires coming loose from the glue/mylar. Have never heard it with my 3.6s, over time Magnepan supposedly changed the anti-resonant tuning dots and improved the adhesive.

My surround speakers which are 10.1's exhibit a buzz in one panel but only if I run a pink noise frequency sweep on it. So it probably has some loose wires, will send back to the factory one day for a redo.
 
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TitaniumTroy

TitaniumTroy

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I don't know a lot about engineering but I know a lot of people do not like the curved panel of the Martin Logan's as it makes it more difficult to keep the panel under control. Also having one large panel does not make for a good high frequency tweeter. Hence why Magnepan uses a 1/4" ribbon tweeter which has wide dispersion.

Hi Don and AJ.
 

AJ Soundfield

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Not sure where you got the last one from.
Stereophile.
Quasi-anechoic and just fine for our panel measurements.
Multi-axis:
912Montisfig4.jpg

"Resonances" still there, much like they would be in the Harman spin-o-rama.
Or any measurement of a very large diaphragm, which will exhibit acoustic interference.
Ok, now what's not shown in the Harman measurements:
Impedance:
912Montisfig1.jpg


Quite smooth, no glitches. Where are the resonances?

you are implying you know more than Dr. Toole and Olive on the use of this term.
Nope, that was you.
Now you do claim to know Dr Toole.
Please show him both the FR and impedance and ask him why they only show up in one, not the other.
I would characterize the rough FR as acoustic interference, not resonances.
I'll try to post something on Sean's blog, see if he responds.

cheers,

AJ
 

DonH56

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Hi Amir,

Could you link or send the Harmon paper? I'd like to get the context before commenting.

Buzzing due to delamination of the wires from the mylar substrate is not a panel resonance issue. And yah Magnepan has changed glue over the years so hopefully the current crop is less likely to exhibit that problem, though to be fair it usually takes years before delamination happens and Magnepan is pretty good (and not expensive) in repair.

Disclaimer: I am not a speaker designer and probably off-base on some of my hypotheses. Fair warning. I am out of my depth (which does not stop me from babbling, natch.)

Panel modes, at least that is what I was taught to call them way back when I took the course, are similar to the break-up modes in cone speakers. A laser interferometry system showed them quite clearly when a B&W rep who was using the system to show the benefits of their new cone material (back in the 801 matrix days) turned it on a couple of panels we had in the store (Magnepan and Quad). You really need a well-treated room or anechoic chamber (not a complete panacea for a panel speaker) and careful mic'ing to ferret them out of a frequency response plot. Comb filter effects from the back waves, reflections from everywhere, and interference effects from the front waves make it hard to distinguish a true panel resonance from the effect of signal cancellation (or enhancement) from multiple reflections and multiple drivers.

Note that time delay across the panels can also be significant and results in FR aberrations if not aimed (or mic'd) properly. Quad used an interesting approach to combat this effect, involving patterned conductors, which also provides less directivity over frequency.

When I was piddling later, without access to a laser interferometer, I used very close mic'ing and either an anechoic chamber or heavily treated wall behind them (and once or twice out in a field) to try to distinguish panel modes from other causes of frequency aberrations.

An ideal panel would be massless, infinitely stiff, and immersed in a strong bipolar magnetic (planar dynamic, e.g. Magnepan) or electric (ESL, e.g. Quad or Martin Logan) field to provide large linear excursion. Directivity is a function of physical dimensions so to prevent beaming you'd have to use special patterning (Quad) or multiple panels/strips (Magnepan) to provide a decent sweet spot over all frequencies.

FWIWFM - Don
 

RayDunzl

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How do you prevent beaming from a trumpet?

Or destructive interferences from the soundboard of a piano or the top of a violin or guitar (time delays)?

Does a vibrating string interfere with itself along its length when heard from some perpendicular location (time delay again) ?

If you play instruments in a room, don't they "suffer" similar FR issues as would a speaker playing their anechoically recorded tones?

Aren't we used to all these chaotic effects and largely ignore/process them accordingly on the fly?

---

As for the panel sending resonances back toward the speaker cables, there's a 100:1 (or so) step-up transformer between the amp and the stators in an ESL, so, resonant perturbations (if there) would be reduced by 1/100th going back toward the amp.
 

RayDunzl

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Just for comment, since I never seem to generate any, my stereo pair at the listening position on Dec 24...

Comment on the phase would interest me. Crossover is at 180Hz. Do dynamic drivers keep the phase alignment as well? I've not seen many measurements of that.

The dips in the 200-500 range correspond to the distance to my partially treated wall behind the speakers.


2015-12-24_2310.png
 

AJ Soundfield

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Ray,
1) Can you measure impedance?
2) Why aren't you an SAS member? (not the British folks who swing through windows and blow stuff up)
 

RayDunzl

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Ray,
1) Can you measure impedance?
2) Why aren't you an SAS member? (not the British folks who swing through windows and blow stuff up)

1. I have an old analog scope and a VOM and some low value power resistors, but there are numerous JA measurements of ESL. I don't remember him making any observations of impedance wiggles in the panel frequencies, which he does normally note on boxed speakers when they appear.

This review would probably be the closest to my speakers: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1093ml/

Mlqfig01.jpg


2. It took me a while to figure out what SAS is... This disambiguation was no help.

Then I remembered http://www.meetup.com/Suncoast-Audiophile-Society/

I have looked at that before, and thought about checking it out, but I'm not a real social animal. Unless you send me back to Japan with an expense account, where there's always a second party.

Also, in the recent past (like 12 years) I've been taking care of my formerly demented 95 y/o Mother and really (I mean really) haven't gotten out much. Which is cool, because when I was working (Telecom) I was always out. I'm now quite content just puttering around here at Neverland East occasionally watching you guys try to out maneuver each other in the 33rd Olympiad of Distorted Semantics.

She ceased operations on March 19 (R.I.P.), so, after working through things related to that event, I'll be free, free, free.

I wouldn't mind checking out your operations. You're not far from my audio buddy John, at Jeanal and North Ola. He comes over on Saturday night regularly, and you could too should you be so inclined.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty deaf up top, always have been, so was Mother, so I can honestly and unabashedly say "No." when you say "You can't hear that?!?", but still have what I think is a rather critical ear for what does make its way into my head.
 

AJ Soundfield

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1. I have an old analog scope and a VOM and some low value power resistors, but there are numerous JA measurements of ESL. I don't remember him making any observations of impedance wiggles in the panel frequencies, which he does normally note on boxed speakers when they appear.
Right. we have to be clear of what sort of "resonances" we are referring to here. Enclosure resonances would best be measured with an accelerometer based system, transducer resonance - FR/impedance.
When Toole/Olive reference "resonances", as in their paper, I assume they are referencing the latter.
I'm never really sure what Amir is referencing.:p

That be the one. On deck this weekend, ML Summits + multi-sub system. Several members with MLs.
And just about every brand known to man, a nice mix with nearly 100 members.
Once you get yourself sorted, try to attend an event to meet the loons.:D
Yes, would love to check out your system at some point.

cheers,

AJ
 

RayDunzl

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I leaned a mic up against the sidepanel a while back, poor man's accelerometer...

Red, touching, Blue, two inches away

2016-04-06_1259.png


I didn't try anywhere on the front.
 
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