Which DAC measurements do you like to see next?

[amirm]

Now that I'm thinking about it, how about testing digital-to-digital performance of that TaoTronics adapter @amirm? You could get a pair and do both SPDIF in and out.

I am interested in this too. But tell me more about what you have in mind with two of them. Do you mean connecting them together or using them independently?

 

[duo8]

Yes, I am interested in this category. I have been loaned the pixel 2 adapter cable so plan to test it.

I takes me longer to get motivated to do tests of this types since I have to use my phone, different audio playback, etc. which makes it hard to run tests.

You can try with a usb c-to-a adapter, they're UAC compliant IIRC.
The pixel 2 is known to work on PCs, so the other generic realtek ones probably will too.

 

[amirm]

Oh, if it works on the PC, that is much better.

 

[DataX]

I am interested in this too. But tell me more about what you have in mind with two of them. Do you mean connecting them together or using them independently?

Well like @duo8 said, bluetooth / aptX is not lossless and and compresses standard 16/44.1 PCM audio down a 352 Kbps stream (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AptX#Mode_of_operation). It would be interesting to see how this impacts frequency response, dynamic range, jitter, and how the device performs otherwise. If performance isn't bad, it could be a pretty nifty device in some cases.

Also, if you're interested in testing bluetooth headphone DAC/Amps, it would give you a baseline on how the audio stream is impacted by the digital compression and a way to directly compare the DAC/Amps in these portable devices.

 

[amirm]

Lossy codecs cannot be characterized with the types of measurements. I can see if it screws up simple things like frequency response and such. But the actual fidelity cannot be measured as I do.

 

[Jacona]

Hello, new to the forum but been reading the reviews for a bit.

How about the Mayflower Electronic Arc?
This company made O2 and ODAC for a while but the Arc is apparently an original design.
Been wondering if it's actually any good especially since its only $230 for an AMP+DAC+ADC.

 

[amirm]

How about the Mayflower Electronic Arc?

You are tempting me. The only flaw I see in it is the limited sampling rate support. Just limited to 44 and 48 kHz over USB???

 

[Leit]

Questyle would be another Chinese made product I would like to see. Their DAC/amp CMA400i/600i/800i line-up is rather new and feature rich, yet simple to operate. Prices are a tad higher than Topping for instance, around 800€ for CMA400i.

https://www.questyle.com/en/about

https://www.questyle.com/en/product/CMA400i

 

[amirm]

That seems like a proper company and proper product. Alas the US cost for that unit is $1,300 on Amazon. So hard to justify it for me to just to buy to test. Does anyone own one?

 

[Leit]

That seems like a proper company and proper product. Alas the US cost for that unit is $1,300 on Amazon. So hard to justify it for me to just to buy to test. Does anyone own one?

1300$!? That's like 1150€. I can literally get it for 800€ (excluding shipping) in Europe. I often feel everything is more expensive here but this product certainly has some favor towards European customers.

edit. Oh, you were referring to CMA600i price and I was talking about CMA400i.

 

[amirm]

Ah, you are right. Sorry about that. For some reason the 400i is not available on Amazon anymore. Saving me from reading their website , what is the difference between them?

 

[Leit]

Ah, you are right. Sorry about that. For some reason the 400i is not available on Amazon anymore. Saving me from reading their website , what is the difference between them?

CMA400i has balanced 2.5mm and XLR headphone outs plus 6.3mm out while 600i has 2x 6.3mm outs and balanced XLR out. 600i has analog RCA inputs while 400i does not. Power outputs and advertised THD+N distortions differ a little. Those should be the main differences.

Also based on the advertisement pictures. 600i uses a "customized toroidal transformer" from Plitron and 400i has a "customized toroidal transformer" from Noratel.

The DAC chip, AK4490 is same in both of the units.

 

[amirm]

Thanks. Does it ever show up on massdrop?

 

[Leit]

Haven't seen any yet. But there might a possibility for that since there has been some other (older) products from Questyle in Massdrop.

 

[HpW]

A measurement without additional HW as:

1 . Provide the 12kHz signal test using the sacred AP in a loop back setting (symmetric / asymmetric setup) using digital (may would by coherent) and the build in analog oscillator and may use averaging to go into the noise

2. do the same with the bit linearity test

just to get the AP beef

Hp

 

[amirm]

Hello Hans Peter! Welcome board.

I have done the loopback linearity with AP. It is the same or slightly better than the best DAC I have measured with it. In other words essentially "perfect" down to -120 dB. The reason it is this good is because the output of the analog oscillator is filtered in two stages by both analog filtering and digital to the source frequency (400 Hz). So almost all the noise and extra distortion is eliminated.

I plan to actually test the newer APs using the same test later this month.

Is that what you were wondering about linearity of AP?

 

[HpW]

I have done the loopback linearity with AP. It is the same or slightly better than the best DAC I have measured with it. In other words essentially "perfect" down to -120 dB. The reason it is this good is because the output of the analog oscillator is filtered in two stages by both analog filtering and digital to the source frequency (400 Hz). So almost all the noise and extra distortion is eliminated.

I plan to actually test the newer APs using the same test later this month.

Is that what you were wondering about linearity of AP?

Hmm, 400Hz is very close to hum, IMHO. 1.5kHz (SR 48kHz) and coherent freq. may do not need any filtering, just FFT Bin readout.

What is your exact brand of old AP and upcoming AP. Hopefully the new AP is able to get higher FFT sizes and nice zooming at the spectrum

Keep in mind that AP has AK5394a as the ADC on low frq. range. AKM do not specific any none linearity nor Jitter figures.
In other words, we deal with cheap Chips with a high overall equipment price ratio.

Hp

 

[amirm]

What is your exact brand of old AP and upcoming AP. Hopefully the new AP is able to get higher FFT sizes and nice zooming at the spectrum

I have an AP 2522. The two I hope to test are the APx525 and APx555 from Audio Precision. They both go up to a million point FFT from what I recall.

 

[amirm]

Keep in mind that AP has AK5394a as the ADC on low frq. range. AKM do not specific any none linearity nor Jitter figures.
In other words, we deal with cheap Chips with a high overall equipment price ratio.

That "cheap" ADC is paired with an exceptional analog amplifier/scalar. The AP examines the input signal and automatically range switches to keep the ADC in its ideal performance range. This is what makes Audio Precision analyzer so expensive. There is a massive analog board that dwarfs the ADC. Add to that analog bandpass filtering and it provides exceptional performance that you can't match with just a sound card.

 

[Elix]

Hello! First of all, thanks (to Amir) for outstanding work in presenting us all these measurements!
I've been wondering if you have any interest in reviewing small portable DACs for use with phones like SMSL IDEA (which you've measured already) and DAC/AMP combos.

Among the most interesting ones are:
SMSL IQ (ES9018Q2C+XCore200XU208)
Sabaj DA3 (ES9018Q2C+XCore200XU208)
TEMPOTEC Sonata iDSD (ES9018K2M+ES9601K)
Topping NX4 DSD (ES9038Q2M+XCore200XU208)
iFi micro iDSD Black Label (dual Burr-Brown DAC)

Also, I know it's a bit inappropriate, but I wanted to draw your attention to iBasso DX200 DAP with AMP4 module (not AMP4s). Reportedly it has "huge", "holographic", "mind-boggling" etc... soundstage, while having reference approach to delivering music (un-colored), completely black background and excellent power and dynamics.
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ibasso-audio-dx200-reference-dap.22169/reviews

AMP4 with its 4.4mm balanced port is my favorite. The soundstage expands to unreasonable dimensions. And since I’m an unreasonable fellow, I appreciate the madness. The power and weight of the music reaches all-time highs. Smoothness and detail increase, as does naturalness and dynamism. You could say it’s an improvement in dichotomies. But the sickest aspect of all is how deep and rich the holographic image becomes. With the right monitors, this sensation is so palpable it can overwhelm me. So real it’s surreal.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dx2...amp5-fw-2-8-198.791531/page-895#post-14231833

Amp 4 is much better than amp 4s. If you can't tell the detail and soundstage difference, or think it's negligible, then you don't have sensitive enough equipment. With the u18 tzar the amp4 is absolutely night and day more detailed. The soundstage is huuuuge. Truly mindboggling stuff that makes you feel like your head is twice the size it usually is. (Impossible to explain if you haven't heard it). Amp 4s is a nice mainstream bassy sound with a round soundstage and good, but not great detail. An improved amp3. Also, amp4s does not have deeper soundstage than amp4. Amp4 is more holographic in every way. Better width and depth. I've done side by side comparisons with the u18 these past days and it has made me respect the amp4 even more than I used to. The dx200 with amp4 is an absolute end game greatest ever contender for portable audio.

I wonder which part of measurements contribute to this performance (soundstage in particular).