Which DAC measurements do you like to see next?

[Wombat]

Hello! First of all, thanks (to Amir) for outstanding work in presenting us all these measurements!
I've been wondering if you have any interest in reviewing small portable DACs for use with phones like SMSL IDEA (which you've measured already) and DAC/AMP combos.

Among the most interesting ones are:
SMSL IQ (ES9018Q2C+XCore200XU208)
Sabaj DA3 (ES9018Q2C+XCore200XU208)
TEMPOTEC Sonata iDSD (ES9018K2M+ES9601K)
Topping NX4 DSD (ES9038Q2M+XCore200XU208)
iFi micro iDSD Black Label (dual Burr-Brown DAC)

Also, I know it's a bit inappropriate, but I wanted to draw your attention to iBasso DX200 DAP with AMP4 module (not AMP4s). Reportedly it has "huge", "holographic", "mind-boggling" etc... soundstage, while having reference approach to delivering music (un-colored), completely black background and excellent power and dynamics.
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ibasso-audio-dx200-reference-dap.22169/reviews

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dx2...amp5-fw-2-8-198.791531/page-895#post-14231833


I wonder which part of measurements contribute to this performance (soundstage in particular).

A large dose of imagination, probably.

 

[Elix]

A large dose of imagination, probably.

Too many user reports confirm that iBasso DX200 with AMP4 has outstanding soundstage, so I doubt that it's just imagination. I've heard DX200 myself but with a stock AMP1 and can confirm other things that are being said about it.

 

[Wombat]

Too many user reports confirm that iBasso DX200 with AMP4 has outstanding soundstage, so I doubt that it's just imagination. I've heard DX200 myself but with a stock AMP1 and can confirm other things that are being said about it.

Too many users report how good Schiit products are.

If one wishes to get user opinions to support a view then the audio forums can oblige in spades, whatever that view.

I am still waiting for the topic of 'soundstage' to be based on a common understanding and usable definition of the term which relates it to something tangible wrt source recording, performance and environment which can be practically recreated in the listening situation.

 

[Elix]

Too many users report how good Schiit products are.

If one wishes to get user opinions to support a view then the audio forums can oblige in spades, whatever that view.

I can relate to that, but maybe you should have a listen to DX200 yourself before calling it BS? Like I said, I wouldn't be so inclined to believe the claims if I hadn't listened to it myself first.

 

[dc655321]

I wonder which part of measurements contribute to this performance (soundstage in particular).

Gross hyperbole of those "reviews" aside, I think the recording(s) being used contribute most to the perception of soundstage. At least far more than the electronics conveying the signals.

I don't see any material reported on there? i.e. what musical pieces were used?

Having said that, noise floor, cross-talk/channel isolation, and harmonic distortion can all play roles here.

 

[HpW]

That "cheap" ADC is paired with an exceptional analog amplifier/scalar. The AP examines the input signal and automatically range switches to keep the ADC in its ideal performance range. This is what makes Audio Precision analyzer so expensive. There is a massive analog board that dwarfs the ADC. Add to that analog bandpass filtering and it provides exceptional performance that you can't match with just a sound card.

Yes, the track able notch filter is excellent and hardly to copy

In case having 2 AP on bench, may use each other as a DAC and measure the 12khz pure signal (none master clock tracked) as you did with the DAC's

 

[amirm]

Among the most interesting ones are:
SMSL IQ (ES9018Q2C+XCore200XU208)
Sabaj DA3 (ES9018Q2C+XCore200XU208)
TEMPOTEC Sonata iDSD (ES9018K2M+ES9601K)
Topping NX4 DSD (ES9038Q2M+XCore200XU208)
iFi micro iDSD Black Label (dual Burr-Brown DAC)

Hi there. Welcome aboard and thanks for the suggestion. I have the DA3 already and plan to review it (click on the link in my signature for list of gear to be reviewed).

On iFi I have one of their silver models I plan to review.

Of your list above other than DA3, which one would you put on top?

 

[Elix]

Hi there. Welcome aboard and thanks for the suggestion. I have the DA3 already and plan to review it (click on the link in my signature for list of gear to be reviewed).

On iFi I have one of their silver models I plan to review.

Of your list above other than DA3, which one would you put on top?

Nice!! Out of these 5 the Topping NX4 DSD is the most interesting because of ES9038Q2M and company's great track record (Topping D50 is a legend here because of you, isn't it?).
I'd rate SMSL IQ and Sabaj DA3 2nd because of their portability. Although DA3 doesn't have a battery, so it's a huge drain on a phone's battery. I've heard of TEMPOTEC only today.

Amir, what is your take on the sound stage topic? Would you be able to predict a DACs/DAPs sound stage's width/height/3D-qualities by looking at your own measurements?

 

[amirm]

Amir, what is your take on the sound stage topic? Would you be able to predict a DACs/DAPs sound stage's width/height/3D-qualities by looking at your own measurements?

The #1 reason what that is "heard" is because one device is louder than another. The loudness lets the sounds stand out more from the background.

I have done a number of careful AB tests with levels matched and try as I might, I cannot find any type of change like this.

Soundstage is a function of differences in level and timing in each ear. DACs better not vary this and same should be true of amplifiers.

As noted, the content is dominant factor here. Our memory of soundstage from one device to another is pretty inaccurate outside of that.

 

[Elix]

I remembered another one in this class. It's Weiliang Audio / Breeze Audio E19 DAC/AMP (ES9028Q2M + SA9226). It's also the cheapest of the bunch.
And a bit of a standout - Hifime UDA38Pro DAC (ES9038Pro + SA9227). I don't know if it'll be any good without external PSU. A lot of battery drain on a phone without it as well (450 mAh).

 

[Wombat]

I can relate to that, but maybe you should have a listen to DX200 yourself before calling it BS? Like I said, I wouldn't be so inclined to believe the claims if I hadn't listened to it myself first.

....... and I can listen to every product ever made? And then there is the matter of recreating the system, sources, environment, your hearing and your psychoacoustic perceptions. Oh, and your uncontrolled?/referenced? listening practice as well.

However, my response was to the rationality of what you considered valid support for your personal opinion.

Welcome to ASR.

 

[maxxevv]

Thanks. Does it ever show up on massdrop?

If you're comfortable with dealing in chinese, they are a whole lot cheaper direct from China.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...lT2S3r&id=556789239838&ns=1&abbucket=3#detail

While you're at it, maybe a Denafrips Ares for some R2R comparisons.

 

[maxxevv]

I remembered another one in this class. It's Weiliang Audio / Breeze Audio E19 DAC/AMP (ES9028Q2M + SA9226). It's also the cheapest of the bunch.
And a bit of a standout - Hifime UDA38Pro DAC (ES9038Pro + SA9227). I don't know if it'll be any good without external PSU. A lot of battery drain on a phone without it as well (450 mAh).

I've got the E19. Pretty good sound output to my ears, but no idea if it will measure well though. Drives a Beyer T1.2, T5, Hifiman Sundara, HD800s, HD6XX, Aeon Flow Open + Closed.

The most interesting part about it besides the DAC chip is that it runs 2 DIP-8 opamp chips that allows swapping. And that it doesn't use a typical 3.7V battery and ramped up to 12~15V for the circuit.

 

[SIY]

I have an AP 2522. The two I hope to test are the APx525 and APx555 from Audio Precision. They both go up to a million point FFT from what I recall.

The 515 I use goes up to 1.2 million, which I've found useful for resolving sidebands.

The biggest thing you'll note is the insanely better software. It is amazingly user-friendly and intuitive.

 

[amirm]

The biggest thing you'll note is the insanely better software. It is amazingly user-friendly and intuitive.

I have been playing with the new software in demo mode. It is better in some respect but unfortunately not as good in others in my workflow. For example when you take a snapshot of the graph, it doesn't capture the notes below. As you see in my measurements, I always include that because it is where I document what is being measured. I also like it there as opposed on the side of the graph because that takes up a lot of space for just labels.

 

[SIY]

I have been playing with the new software in demo mode. It is better in some respect but unfortunately not as good in others in my workflow. For example when you take a snapshot of the graph, it doesn't capture the notes below. As you see in my measurements, I always include that because it is where I document what is being measured. I also like it there as opposed on the side of the graph because that takes up a lot of space for just labels.

I've talked to Jay Datta about some of the graphing issues (my biggest squawk is that I can't change the font on the axes, which is a pain because I want to generate publication-ready graphs) and he agrees that they could use a purchased graphing package instead of their in-house one. I'll bet that shows up in the next year or so. For your issue, you could do what I do- I put the measurement stuff in a comment block stuck in an empty part of the graph.

In my view, the Bench Mode is the single biggest improvement- for the stuff I do, a canned measurement sequence is a nice starting point, but I generally want to probe deeper when I find something odd. My only other squawk is that the impedance measurement for speakers/headphones is not available in Bench mode, only in Sequence mode. If you're not doing speaker/headphone measurements, this is a moot point. But I do, so this is an annoyance, albeit a very minor one.

All in all, though, the user interface is superb and very intuitive. I spend very little time trying to get stuff working or to change measurement parameters, and the learning curve was minutes instead of weeks.

 

[Krunok]

Too many user reports confirm that iBasso DX200 with AMP4 has outstanding soundstage, so I doubt that it's just imagination.

Oh no, let's not use argumentum ad populum again to prove something. (Look here for definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)

In my opinion (and experience) argumentum ad populum should only be used as a counterargument and not as an argument.

 

[SIY]

Always remember, there's thousands of reports of alien abductions and anal probing. There's just as much evidence for that.

Get reasonable separation, close interchannel conformance in level and frequency response, and the soundstage and imaging will be fine.

 

[Wombat]

Oh no, let's not use argumentum ad populum again to prove something. (Look here for definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)

In my opinion (and experience) argumentum ad populum should only be used as a counterargument and not as an argument.

A good example of learning from this forum.

 

[Elix]

Oh no, let's not use argumentum ad populum again to prove something. (Look here for definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)

In my opinion (and experience) argumentum ad populum should only be used as a counterargument and not as an argument.

Oh, come on, not this argument again... I will only make one post on this.

Audio is a very subjective domain because not only it rests on sensory perception which differs person-by-person but on one's ability to convert sensations into words (reviews, testimonies etc.). So what's true for one may not be true for the other, or that person might be fooling himself and the other (intentional or not), or his wording is too hyped, or the other person misinterpreted his words because they have different mindset for words etc etc.. To cut things short, subjective listening testimonies are only helpful if you comprehend very well the Point of View (or frame of reference) of the other person. This is obtainable only if you've listened to something exactly the same under the same conditions as that person. Then you may compare his subjective impressions and yours and get a frame of reference which you then can interpolate on his other testimonies to get approximate understanding of what your impressions would be. Then you begin collecting other people's impressions to collect a statistical data which will either confirm or deny facts stated in those impressions. It is a pretty universally accepted opinion (if you read the Internet) that DX200 + AMP4's soundstage is phenomenal. Again, this is not really an argument for everybody, but for me it is because I collected all this data based on my PoV. You can go and get yours if you really want. Or just go and take a listen to that player yourself.

In my original post I specifically stated that I've heard the iBasso DX200 with the stock amp and was able to devise a frame of reference (for myself) to confirm that what is being said about it and AMP4 is (most probably) true. You can take this argument as just my opinion without any hard evidence, I frankly couldn't care less if you buy this player or not. I don't understand why everyone's so edgy about that thing I said.

Always remember, there's thousands of reports of alien abductions and anal probing. There's just as much evidence for that.

Gross exxageration. Not really a relevant example in this case as reports on audio equipment can be tested on a person-by-person basis.