"Things that cannot be measured"

[CMOT]

Bingo. They didn't bother blinding because... well... that might not be a good part of the story.

Wow. I didn't remember that part of it all. That isn't good.

 

[solderdude]

Regarding the thread title - Things that cannot be measured - How about the gullibility of audiophiles.

I think it is more about not understanding (all) relevant measurements and people not finding any correlation between them and not knowing how to interpret them.

 

[mansr]

Regarding the thread title - Things that cannot be measured - How about the gullibility of audiophiles.

That's mostly because we lack a way of efficiently representing numbers that large.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Bingo. They didn't bother blinding because... well... that might not be a good part of the story.

I had Carver's amp at one time and a baby brother to the CJ. My listening was sighted as well, but I'm pretty sure they really sounded different. But I've no more to offer than one more anecdotal claim. I used them with ESL speakers and the output impedance would alter the response at least.

 

[scott wurcer]

Those that really want to know instead of theorize or quote what some (might) have said ....

Use @pkane software to add harmonics to music.
Then run that file and the original through @pkane nulling software and listen to the null.
Then tell us if adding what you hear will sound musical.

I don't think this is the best idea, it eliminates all masking effects.

 

[Robh3606]

How well a pair of speakers will image in my room. What are the specific measurements that will let me know?

Rob

 

[mhardy6647]

I didn’t want to go there...

aww, c'mon to the Dark Side*. All the cool kids R there.


______________
* actually a nice warm orange glow (unless the tungsten's thoriated); kinda like the welcoming fires of hell.
(and do I even have to mention that, auf Deutsch, hell means bright?)
- insert maniacal laughter here -

SE84B zoomin by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[pkane]

I don't think this is the best idea, it eliminates all masking effects.

It does? Which masking effects?

EDIT: Oh, I though we were talking about DISTORT and not nulling software. Yes, listening to just the null waveform will eliminate all the masking effects of the primary signal. But listening to the output of DISTORT directly will give you a nicely distorted original signal that some may actually enjoy

 

[CMOT]

aww, c'mon to the Dark Side*. All the cool kids R there.

I do have a restored Marantz 8b on my desk at work. But someone gave it to me. It is kind of fun running off my SOTA MacBook Pro. And my Peachtree has this stupid tube buffer for the preamp that I have never, ever used except when I want a nice glow with the lights down...

 

[mhardy6647]

The 8B is a nice amplfier.
I've restored identically one in my "career" and I was pretty darned pleased with the final result.

Marantz8Bfrontlookingup-1 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[CMOT]

I enjoy it immensely. It sounds nice in the office and warms it up in winter. It also has important sentimental value. Hopefully my kids will appreciate it when one of them inherits it!

 

[Wes]

Although bizarrely, some tube fans on here prefer to ignore this fact and claim they do not like distortion. Must be the pixies then.

maybe nixie tubes...

 

[mocenigo]

They even invented the whole idiotic source first paradigm ofcourse they did as at the beginning they only had their record player and no other products .
With analog sources it had some kernel of truth in it but not driven to the extreme and especially not at all today with digital sources .

I do not think it is an idiotic paradigm. At the time people were mostly using turntables with arms and cartridges, which have a huge impact on sound, so this made sense.

Even today, you can apply the same phrase as follows: just pick a good DAC first, then never worry again and choose amplifier and speakers ;-) I know, I know well that this was not what they meant at the time...

 

[scott wurcer]

I enjoy it immensely. It sounds nice in the office and warms it up in winter. It also has important sentimental value. Hopefully my kids will appreciate it when one of them inherits it!

I've already been told it all goes into the dumpster.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

If someone asserts there is some mysterious quality beyond the measurement capabilities of state of the art laboratory audio gear, it is incumbent on that person to specify what that quality might be, how it impacts the listening experience (citing psycho-accoustic research), how it might be measured by a more complete process, and what would constitute a good measurement coming out of that more complete process.

 

[Mnyb]

If someone asserts there is some mysterious quality beyond the measurement capabilities of state of the art laboratory audio gear, it is incumbent on that person to specify what that quality might be, how it impacts the listening experience (citing psycho-accoustic research), how it might be measured by a more complete process, and what would constitute a good measurement coming out of that more complete process.

They may even have Nobel price coming for a revolution in physics as these things are not present in the electrical signal

 

[Frank Dernie]

The LP12 is basically a 'blue printed' Thorens TD150. The top plates are the same size (the 150 likes an LP12 plinth by the way ) and at one time, the platters were almost interchangeable...

I hadn't realised they were that dimensionally close. I remember one of my friends at Uni had one pre-Linn.
In the end all the "3 compression spring on a small pitch circle" decks are a development of Villcur's original well thought through design. From a functional isolation pov none are substantially better, but the handling and potential for skipping on a wobbly floor put people off, particularly since most people don't understand why it is built like that
As soon as you increase the pitch circle to get the suspension outsidr the perimeter of the platter you can no longer adequately isolate the rocking degrees of freedom. It is physics. So my Goldmund Reference, Oracles, SMEs etc may well look nice and handle well but they are not as effective as the Linn, or Thorens, Pink Triangle, Systemdek etc variations on the AR.

 

[DSJR]

Difference was as I saw it, the Thorens 150 moved the springs around, putting greater load on the rear back one where the arm pivot is located. May not be a huge issue with a TP13 arm, but beef the thing up and fit an Ittok, Zeta (remember those?) or worse, an FR64S (for international readers) and you're in deep trouble. The Vilchur version spread the load around better, having the arm at the head of a crucifix arrangement with the top two springs at 'shoulder level' equidistant from the main axis (i hope I'm getting the terminology right as I see it in my head).

I never owned an AR deck, but I admire the basic design and sonics, even from the crude 60's and early 70's originals. Standards in the bearing slipped for a few years but the final UK issue 'Legend' had a properly sorted bearing and restored the fidelity I thought.

I have a Thorens 160 here in my stash donated by my old school pal when he upgraded to a Gyrodek. Main bearing thrust plate shagged through years of regular use (a ptfe disc added has cured it at least for now) and as you say, the bouncing suspension a total nightmare in my upstairs 'office/workroom.'

To try to bring this all back to the thread - the masochistic delight as well as utter despair in using 'enthusiast vinyl' record playing equipment almost certainly can't be measured, yet sometimes with a decently sorted player, the subjective results can still be pleasing. The fact that most if not all modern vinyl pressings actually come from re-hobbled digital masters tends to shoot over the heads of those who buy them.

 

[mansr]

They may even have Nobel price coming for a revolution in physics as these things are not present in the electrical signal

And a peace prize for ending the cable wars.

 

[solderdude]

My fondness for certain headphones and music can not be accurately measured, only subjectively evaluated.
One can 'rate' headphones acc. to some rules yet that won't correlate with my assesment.
Others will likely evaluate my headphones and taste for music entirely different.