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Towers VS bookshelves: Can people hear the differences?
- Thread starter warthor
- Start date
Sgt. Ear Ache
Major Contributor
lol, yes.
I guess the way I interpreted the question asked by the OP was thus - given two sets of speakers, one a bookshelf and one a tower, that measured the same at the listening position, would there be anything about the tower that would cause it to be distinguishable from the bookshelf in a volume-matched blind test? My feeling is that there wouldn't.
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- Thread Starter
- #23
Yes, I was thinking along these lines. Say, for example, you compared the KEF R3 vs R5 (or R7 because it has the same size driver as the R3). Could people tell the difference at the same volume level on a variety of tracks?
I would say the subject being discussed is the definition of "measuring the same". Since no measuring system is perfect, and if we stayed with just anechoic on-axis measurement for example, there is going to be heaps of difference in-room between two speakers that measure similar on-axis anechoic.
Fortunately scientists/engineers are not stupid and any idea that a man can think of is a potential dissertation topic, if it hasn't been done by 2000 other students already - which is why research on current research is the first step in any project. As in actual research on google scholars, not facebook.
And so spinorama is one form of the result of this type of thinking. People simply doing in-room measurement is another.
BTW even if the same driver is used, a bigger cabinet results in a lower system resonant frequency i.e. bass still goes lower.
Fortunately scientists/engineers are not stupid and any idea that a man can think of is a potential dissertation topic, if it hasn't been done by 2000 other students already - which is why research on current research is the first step in any project. As in actual research on google scholars, not facebook.
And so spinorama is one form of the result of this type of thinking. People simply doing in-room measurement is another.
BTW even if the same driver is used, a bigger cabinet results in a lower system resonant frequency i.e. bass still goes lower.
You are just wasting everyone's time with the thread. If you are actually interested in loudspeakers least read Floyd Toole's book:
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents): Toole, Floyd E.: 9781138921368: Amazon.com: Books
Sensitivity is one aspect.
Another is that you are gonna need speaker stands. And generally, I prefer the look of towers to speakers+stands, the former is usually more stable too.
Another is that you are gonna need speaker stands. And generally, I prefer the look of towers to speakers+stands, the former is usually more stable too.
Of course you can hear differences, depending on the speakers being compared. A tower with three times the volume and multiple bass drivers can play louder, but it will have quite a task with cabinet resonances and driver integration issues that a smaller stand mounted bookshelf speaker will not. Both can and will have strengths and weaknesses, but without a doubt in many comparisons it will be quite easy to distinguish the speakers apart, even if they are from the same manufacturer's series. At least this is my understanding. What is the point of this question? That might help turn this thread into something more than a flash in the pan.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
+1
Sometimes I fear people are relying too much on preference score charts and not enough on real life listening experiences.
After Amir's review of the new JBL HDI1600 I brought in a pair and listened for about 6 weeks. IMO they are fantastic sounding standmounts but combining the measured response and what I was hearing, I didn't feel I was getting the level upgrade over my HSU standmounts I was hoping for.
My years of experience and very possibly incorrect bias influence was telling me they just weren't providing the improvement in detail and dynamics I was hoping for. I was seeing the relatively low sensitivity for a horn topend system and a few other things that pushed me to dig deeper in my pocket and go for the HDI 3600's, a 3 way system that runs 3 of the same 6 1/2" drivers and gains almost 4 db in sensitivity.
Now it could very well be that the 3600's design and measured numbers checked all the buttons to make my personal bias take over or that I really heard what I think I heard but BAM, they opened up the detail and energy that I had hoped for. I really don't play my music very loud anymore but in reviewing the 1600's I felt that they started to open up as I turned them up a bit but then just seemed to run out of gas pretty quickly. With the 3600s they seem to have a unlimited spl range and just go as loud as I can stand without ever seeming to run out of reserve or compress the detail.
I'm fully pleased with my speaker's abilities and now since the recent upgrade of my 2 subwoofers, which have filled in the very bottom octave in a way my older HSU's couldn't, I believe for a room the size of mine I'm very close to have reached the top of the diminishing returns graph.
Anyway as a person who has owned both stand mounts and larger towers for over 40 years. together at or near close to the same time frames, my experience has taught me that small stand mounts + subs can offer excellent al-around sound. But there always seems to be a limit (wall) to their abilities that an equally good, close to full range tower system can easily surpass without using up any larger room footprint. Measurements hint at the improvement but listening shows the gap to be wider than first appears.
JMHO
My years of experience and very possibly incorrect bias influence was telling me they just weren't providing the improvement in detail and dynamics I was hoping for. I was seeing the relatively low sensitivity for a horn topend system and a few other things that pushed me to dig deeper in my pocket and go for the HDI 3600's, a 3 way system that runs 3 of the same 6 1/2" drivers and gains almost 4 db in sensitivity.
Now it could very well be that the 3600's design and measured numbers checked all the buttons to make my personal bias take over or that I really heard what I think I heard but BAM, they opened up the detail and energy that I had hoped for. I really don't play my music very loud anymore but in reviewing the 1600's I felt that they started to open up as I turned them up a bit but then just seemed to run out of gas pretty quickly. With the 3600s they seem to have a unlimited spl range and just go as loud as I can stand without ever seeming to run out of reserve or compress the detail.
I'm fully pleased with my speaker's abilities and now since the recent upgrade of my 2 subwoofers, which have filled in the very bottom octave in a way my older HSU's couldn't, I believe for a room the size of mine I'm very close to have reached the top of the diminishing returns graph.
Anyway as a person who has owned both stand mounts and larger towers for over 40 years. together at or near close to the same time frames, my experience has taught me that small stand mounts + subs can offer excellent al-around sound. But there always seems to be a limit (wall) to their abilities that an equally good, close to full range tower system can easily surpass without using up any larger room footprint. Measurements hint at the improvement but listening shows the gap to be wider than first appears.
JMHO
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Similarly, my Contour 20s were like that...I had to kick them in the butt a bit to make them open up, and although they didn't run out of gas, it meant low-level listening wasn't as engaging as one would hope.
The new Heritage Specials don't have this issue.
Why is a mystery to me.....as the Heritage Specials are actually *less* sensitive than the Contour 20s, according to spec.
My complete SWAG is the difference in voicecoil / magnet designs between the two.
I recently moved back to towers after about three years with some nice KEF R300s on solid stands supported by two smaller subs. They gave me pretty solid performance at low and mid level listening, but when I wanted to have a more immersive, louder playback experience they just couldn't quite do that in a way that was convincing. My current towers, again supported by two better subs are clearly much more able to do so, but why wouldn't they right? larger cabinet volume, more drivers to move more air. All other things being equal (which of course isn't always the case) the towers will scratch the itch for scale that modest standmounts won't. I know there are some pretty serious stand mounted models that would take exception to that point, but I think it is safe to assume that when most people think of a bookshelf they aren't imagining the biggest such creatures that can be placed on a stand.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
This is a ridiculous thread. The answers have been given by @watchnerd and numerous times in the past. There's just no comparison between large floorstanders and book-shelf speakers for scale and bass response. Not even close. Blind or not blind. Even if you were deaf and blind, you'd still feel the difference!
It's threads like this that make me bemoan the loss of so many proper HiFi stores with a few walls of speakers. Go listen to a wall of bookshelf speakers and then move to the big boys. Rescale your expectations and stop focusing on preference scores- they are meaningless in the scheme of things. Find the nearest proper HiFi stores, get off your lazy backsides, drive there, and go listen to say 20 pairs of speakers.
Bookshelf speakers are just that. Speakers to put discretely in a room not designed for music. They are a supplement to say a library room or a conservatory. A study or a home office. I love bookshelf speakers for the fun factor- a whole lot of music in a shoebox. That's all.
But for goodness sake, they are not the same as real speakers. Real speakers actually move air, they don't just make farting noises out a reflex port.
It's threads like this that make me bemoan the loss of so many proper HiFi stores with a few walls of speakers. Go listen to a wall of bookshelf speakers and then move to the big boys. Rescale your expectations and stop focusing on preference scores- they are meaningless in the scheme of things. Find the nearest proper HiFi stores, get off your lazy backsides, drive there, and go listen to say 20 pairs of speakers.
Bookshelf speakers are just that. Speakers to put discretely in a room not designed for music. They are a supplement to say a library room or a conservatory. A study or a home office. I love bookshelf speakers for the fun factor- a whole lot of music in a shoebox. That's all.
But for goodness sake, they are not the same as real speakers. Real speakers actually move air, they don't just make farting noises out a reflex port.
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I'm actually enjoying seeing the trend of larger speakers like the Heresy and such coming back. Big bore speakers have the thump and bump and just rock and roll better than lil' boxes that we would have put in the back seat of a car never mind in a large room. ;P
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Everything does full cycles every 40 years or so. Fashion, Architecture, Furniture, Food and HiFi.
Look at all the large manufacturers jumping on the 'retro' look and style. Wharefdale (IAG) bring back the Linton, JBL bringing back the Century L-100 as a modern incarnation, Yamaha updating the NS-1000M to a NS-5000, along with a heap of aesthetically 70s looking gear to drive them.
Towers like the Revels are ugly to my eyes. Bowers & Wilkins have gone tacky too. As for KEF and some others, I just shake my head. I want a speaker to look like a speaker. Not a melted roman column with weird looking drivers. I have some attempts at stylish towers, but they just are a design aberration in general to me and they date really quickly.
Manufacturers are desperately attempting to make HiFi fashionable. Fashionable means the latest 2021 look is what you must have, which of course will be so 'last year' in 2022.
I would like to see big bore speakers become the norm again. With that comes the enthusiasm req'd to own and operate them and that gets the entire industry moving along at a better pace. Once people that have been looking at bookshelf speakers get a taste of big bore speakers they will see the light.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Absolutely true. It may do a full circle back to showrooms and B&M stores once people realize all the silly little impulse buy speakers they buy online based on youtuber's reviews are just sideways steps on the audiophile ladder.
What HiFi store didn't demo their best speakers to every wide-eyed kid as a reference point and to "educate" those customers as to what they could shoot for? An upgrade path and a reminder that they compromised. And for the few that bought the biggest/best they were satisfied for a whole lot longer before 'upgraditis' kicked in.
It's underselling High Fidelity as a whole, focusing on a constant stream of small 2 ways.
Yes, I've shown off the statement speakers from KEF, JBL, B&W, Infinity and whatever else we had in the high end room and those experiences really gave the customers a taste of what it's all about and some even returned a fair amount of time later to buy them because they saw them as a end game investment and that anything less was a compromise. It's like I always say about fancy wood grain speakers once the customers can see them, feel them and drool on them they come back and buy them and the product moves well. Big bore speakers are the same way but people need to get a taste of them compared to a lil' bookshelf that sounds like a handheld transistor radio in comparison. I see most people in Canada living in houses and I think why don't they have big bore speakers? I go to the retailers and they have small speakers and big bore speakers are special order. That's not how they get sold.
Brown furniture is back.
Fashion cycle: https://www.domain.com.au/living/wh...omes-like-their-grandparents-in-2021-1022683/
Note the sunroom colours. The ASR logo is now hip.
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Funny thing is I was once told that floorstanders are the "lifestyle" compromise since they look good and take up less space, real speakers are those 8-inch or 12-inch speakers that look like a bigger bookshelf, like the JBL L100 for example.
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