Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

[Dismayed]

Yes I keep hearing this being repeated. This is not a DAC problem. I understand that trying to explain this here is futile, so I will not bother.

Odd that my new Teac DAC is dead quiet no matter what is happening on my computer. And it's plugged into the same USB port on my computer using the same cable that I used with the Schiit. Yes, trying to explain this away as 'not a DAC problem' is likely futile, because any excuse that you would come up with would be nonsense. This is an experiment where ONLY THE DAC HAS CHANGED! Stop being such a putz.

 

[Wombat]

D

Welcome to the forum. Indeed the first time I went there I was overwhelmed with amount of Schiit gear and participation by Jason. So I assume they get the gear as loaner equipment. Per FTC rule in US, they need to state that up front in their reviews.

Does the FTC rule apply to gifts, even ones that are returned at some point?

 

[Wombat]

Yes I keep hearing this being repeated. This is not a DAC problem. I understand that trying to explain this here is futile, so I will not bother.

Please do explain. I for one have been looking forward to you expounding some of your inferred knowledge and experience. That is the basis of what this forum is about.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Its not confusing at all. Simply the only truth which makes sense.
If subjectivists cannot trust their ears (like never being able to pass blind tests, or swearing about nonsense which isn't ever audible and they cannot prove to be audible) then why should anyone listen to their recommendations as it is literally the ESSENCE of making things up.


Marketing > Science for Schiit.
They know they will market whatever crap they are going to sell and that all the headfiers will eat it up. Especially with the administrative control going on over there. If you cant guarantee that you will get 90% + positive reviews and never allow reviews which are objective or technical to exist because those introduce real credibility issues.... then why would you need to spend time on product design? You can literally make any crap you want and then curate your way to success. In dealing with them over the last months, it was very evident to me that doubt and curation are their business methods.

Suggesting things like "dirty power" are just some of their tricks when "dirty power" basically doesn't exist in 99% of scenarios and modern day components are EFI shielded naturally.



I can guarentee you that this didn't happen. When I approached them even in private message about the issues I was expericing with their USB interface they weren't interested in how to reproduce it and were quick to jump all over me in making wild claims about the power in my house, my computers, laptops, operating systems, etc.
When I asked them directly about reproducing it they said that they had "hundreds of hours of testing and never saw the issue so its on my side".
Despite me being able to recreate it with 3 different physical pieces of schiit hardware on 7 different machines running 4 different OS's.... they were still uninterested.

This type of ideology shows that not only do they know the issues are there, but not only are they not going to fix them, they are just going to demean anyone who reports them or simply have their posts curated on one of the various forums where they control the flow of information.

This went all the way up the ladder to the headfi administrators who had the exact same childish replies and weren't even interested in instructions on how to cause the issue to happen. Instead I was berated, called a child and a crybaby and told I was jumping to conclusions. The administrators have been hiding like little girls for over 45 days now (this issue actually went on 120+ days ago) but I haven't made any leeway with anyone.
Between this forum and me going to CanJam its going to be an interesting year for these guys.

When these frauds have been exposed they won't be able to show their faces in a single hifi related place in the world, because everyone will know that they have literally been controlling the headphone scene for years by manipulating the flow of information and the opinions of enthusiasts in favor of brands that pay them. The sad part is that this sort of corruption goes much deeper than Schiit and with more measurements in time, the corruption will just continue to unfold.
There are actually a few topics on chinese forums discussing this exact manipulation in relation to brands which are "sponsors" on head-fi and a few other forums (like SBAF) where objectivity has been cast aside and even in some cases fake graphs have been made (or measurements have been done at a specific frequency that shows some performance characteristic they are trying to push in marketing).

Your issue was ignored because it is not a real issue. Foolish claims can be ignore. What you describe is not an issue with a dac. It would be a waste of time trying to teach you.

Do you know that Luciano Pavarotti was a crappy singer when eating a ham sandwich.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

So if DAC A lets computer activity bleed out audibly and DAC B does not, how is it not a DAC problem?

Correct! This is total foolishness. On CA where people are really interested in audio people build MBs with better clocks and many other high level mods. The out of line users here complain when they are saving files, playing games and who knows what else, and if the flow of data is disturbed they blame the dac. just pure foolishness.

 

[amirm]

Does the FTC rule apply to gifts, even ones that are returned at some point?

Yes. From: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...tcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking

"In addition, the Guides say, if there’s a connection between an endorser and the marketer that consumers would not expect and it would affect how consumers evaluate the endorsement, that connection should be disclosed. "

"The question you need to ask is whether knowing about that gift or incentive would affect the weight or credibility your readers give to your recommendation. If it could, then it should be disclosed."

"What if I return the product after I review it? Should I still make a disclosure?

That might depend on the product and how long you are allowed to use it. For example, if you get free use of a car for a month, we recommend a disclosure even though you have to return it. But even for less valuable products, it’s best to be open and transparent with your readers."
​

It is essentially a "smell test." If once you know it stinks, then it needs to be disclosed.

 

[amirm]

Your issue was ignored because it is not a real issue. Foolish claims can be ignore. What you describe is not an issue with a dac. It would be a waste of time trying to teach you.

There is nothing foolish about a DAC that plays noises in addition to music. Manufacturer needs to try to replicate the problem and failing that, refund the customer.

We carried receivers from a Canadian AV company. We sold about 10 of them, and some of them started to have problems when hooked up to Comcast cable boxes in US (screen would go blank occasionally). The manufacturer at first washed its hands off of it saying they don't have Comcast in Canada so no way to fix the problem! We put pressure on them and they gave us debug versions of the box. We sent them log reports and weeks later, they still did not work. We took all the boxes back from customers and put in other ones at our expense. We then fought and after threatening legal action, the manufacturer finally agreed to give us our money back. We lost thousands of dollars and good reputation because of this. But the "customer was always right."

It doesn't matter that this issue was hard for Schiit to duplicate. They should have asked OP at Schiit expense to send the computer and DAC for them to troubleshoot. Just sitting there and saying this is not their problem is not a solution for a high-end company. Or again, offer to buy back the products.

 

[Wombat]

Your issue was ignored because it is not a real issue. Foolish claims can be ignore. What you describe is not an issue with a dac. It would be a waste of time trying to teach you.

Do you know that Luciano Pavarotti was a crappy singer when eating a ham sandwich.

 

[amirm]

BTW, my history with Schiit is that when the company first came out, I just assumed because of that name, they must be building good products. So when my son came to me and asked me what to buy I said "Schiit." He bought the BiFrost DAC only to come to me and say that he can hear his computer noises through it. I put it on the bench and this happened: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...puter-activity-can-impact-dac-performance.22/. As shown there, there was horrendous jitter. Combined with noises traveling across USB to the analog output, that was enough for him to go and ask for a refund before the period was up. Imagine my embarrasment in front of my son though.

So I don't doubt issues with Schiit DACs when people express them. Maybe they are wrong but they need to be investigated or refunded. Those are the only right answers in a premium product. Heck I can buy a $20 DAC on Amazon and manufacture will provide this type of service to me.

 

[dallasjustice]

There is nothing foolish about a DAC that plays noises in addition to music. Manufacturer needs to try to replicate the problem and failing that, refund the customer.

We carried receivers from a Canadian AV company. We sold about 10 of them, and some of them started to have problems when hooked up to Comcast cable boxes in US (screen would go blank occasionally). The manufacturer at first washed its hands off of it saying they don't have Comcast in Canada so no way to fix the problem! We put pressure on them and they gave us debug versions of the box. We sent them log reports and weeks later, they still did not work. We took all the boxes back from customers and put in other ones at our expense. We then fought and after threatening legal action, the manufacturer finally agreed to give us our money back. We lost thousands of dollars and good reputation because of this. But the "customer was always right."

It doesn't matter that this issue was hard for Schiit to duplicate. They should have asked OP at Schiit expense to send the computer and DAC for them to troubleshoot. Just sitting there and saying this is not their problem is not a solution for a high-end company. Or again, offer to buy back the products.

This is the primary duty of the dealer. The dealer should always represent the customer first. 99% of the time the dealer never has reason to choose between customer and manufacturer. But when it does happen that a manufacturer screws up, real dealers take care of the customer. The problem with low production audiophile products and their dealers is that most of the time the dealers aren’t well established and are just happy to be selling something. Those dealers view the manufacturer as their client and the customer as a second class citizen.

 

[March Audio]

Yes I keep hearing this being repeated. This is not a DAC problem. I understand that trying to explain this here is futile, so I will not bother.

Incorrect. A usb DAC is specifically designed to be attached to a computer. Countless DACs manage this without issue regardless of the computer they are attached to. It is categorically a DAC issue.

Trying to explain to the contrary is indeed a futile exercise. To do so you would need to present a reasoned argument. That is not possible in this instance and you are incapable of doing so.

 

[Wombat]

Your issue was ignored because it is not a real issue. Foolish claims can be ignore. What you describe is not an issue with a dac. It would be a waste of time trying to teach you.

Do you know that Luciano Pavarotti was a crappy singer when eating a ham sandwich.

Do I detect you eating chicken-baloney?

Explaining your take on the dac problem is that much of a dilemma?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Correct! This is total foolishness. On CA where people are really interested in audio people build MBs with better clocks and many other high level mods. The out of line users here complain when they are saving files, playing games and who knows what else, and if the flow of data is disturbed they blame the dac. just pure foolishness.

So, the DAC should be carefully protected from the computer via heroic measures in the PC. Therefore when a DAC is highly effected by computer activity and passes on noise from PC activity it is not a DAC issue. It is a USB/PC issue.

On the other hand 95%+ of the makers of USB DACs manage to build gear that is not effected by the USB connection, and do not pass noise from computer activity. Allowing one to yes play games or watch movies and feed music out over USB with no problems.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,................................which of these is the better way to go. Don't forget in one scenario your computer becomes near single purpose and making it fit requires somewhat substantial amounts of money. The other version apparently can be included for only a few tens of dollars.

I'm having a hard time figuring it out, why one inexpensive highly convenient method is inferior to an inconvenient expensive method which does not appear to provide superior performance. So would you like to take another swing at it.

Go ahead, spit it out, don't be coy. Don't be too cute to explain.

 

[amirm]

Correct! This is total foolishness. On CA where people are really interested in audio people build MBs with better clocks and many other high level mods. The out of line users here complain when they are saving files, playing games and who knows what else, and if the flow of data is disturbed they blame the dac. just pure foolishness.

They do indeed. They chase lay understanding of electronics, devoid of any tools to confirm what they are doing, is actually doing what they think. In many cases they make things worse, not better. But as long as they drive blind, they don't know any better.

 

[Jinjuku]

Correct! This is total foolishness. On CA where people are really interested in audio people build MBs with better clocks and many other high level mods. The out of line users here complain when they are saving files, playing games and who knows what else, and if the flow of data is disturbed they blame the dac. just pure foolishness.

The flow of data to the DAC is fine. What is happening is that the ground plane on the DAC isn't sufficiently isolated and it's coupling noise from the computer.

CA has a good sized contingent of members that aren't that competent when it comes to computer audio. I can't believe the # of threads just on NIC's and Switchs with TXCO upgraded clocks on them. Sometimes you can't fix ignorance.

 

[Jinjuku]

I also realize that I'm not always going to be dealing with rational people in forums.

 

[amirm]

Post deleted. No personal insults please. Move along if you have nothing technical to offer on the topic.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Incorrect. A usb DAC is specifically designed to be attached to a computer. Countless DACs manage this without issue regardless of the computer they are attached to. It is categorically a DAC issue.

Trying to explain to the contrary is indeed a futile exercise. To do so you would need to present a reasoned argument. That is not possible in this instance and you are incapable of doing so.

It makes zero sense to argue something with the inane. No person in there right mind uses a audio computer the way some have described here and blame the dac for buffer under runs or other sonic aberrations. It is the same as smashing walnuts with a hammer on the same stand a turntable rests on, and then blaming the turntable for recording skipping. You cannot make this stuff up. Really I appreciate the good laughs provided here! Oh and yes, another expert tell me I cannot possibly know that a Crown ic150 and dc300a cannot measure well and sound like crap. So hilarious.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

So if DAC A lets computer activity bleed out audibly and DAC B does not, how is it not a DAC problem?

Move some of this crap over to CA and see what people say!

 

[Wombat]

Feel free! I am sure you will be comfortable there from what you have been saying but not verifying.