Topping D70s MQA Review (DAC)

[amirm]

Also, do we have the 50mV results? This thing looks to be exceptional at low level.

I only run that test on headphone amps not DACs.

 

[pma]

These comments belong outside of review thread of this specific product. Future posts will be deleted. Discuss it elsewhere.

But he was right. It seems that you are directly connected to Topping and that ASR serves as a marketing platform to them. It can be checked by browsing their website. You are not independent, at all.

 

[Newman]

@pma wouldn’t it be better if you asked, instead of asserted?

After all, Amir routinely posts at the head of reviews where he has an affiliation or interest, for example his Revel reviews. The fact that he does not do so for Topping should be a hint for you.

My question would relate more to the fact that Topping are sending Amir the test samples of their products, opening the possibility that they could be ‘specials’.

 

[amirm]

But he was right. It seems that you are directly connected to Topping and that ASR serves as a marketing platform to them. It can be checked by browsing their website. You are not independent, at all.

Thread posting ban issued. Keep on topic of the review. The rest of the forum is for such rants.

And no, I have no relationship whatsoever with Topping. They send me gear once in a while and I test them. They are one of the few companies that not only measure their own designs, but actually supplies AP measurements as part their manuals. So the fact that they do well on similar tests run by me is no surprise.

ASR acts as the "marketing arm" for any company that produces well designed products. It is a service to the industry to encourage better engineering. This is how it has been at the start and will continue to be so. You like a different culture? Seek that out, not make false accusations.

 

[Cortes]

As an owner of a Makua (Tambaqui inside a preamp) I got to say this is very impressive.

Below the "elite" multitone champs in increasing price.

Gustard X16 (500 usd)

Topping D70s (650 usd)

Okto dac8 stereo (1,240 usd)

Mola Mola Tambaqui (11,500 usd)

Can you distinguish your ADI-2 from your Tambaqui doing another person the switch between them?.

 

[Matias]

Can you distinguish your ADI-2 from your Tambaqui doing another person the switch between them?.

Never tried.

 

[raif71]

Not yet, but that could happen with the D90-ESS.

I don't think our AKM DAC's will jump far in value. There isn't much to improve upon except price.

Topping, will you be able to lower your prices for the ESS based replacements?

Yeah, D90s could well be ESS based with the "s" = Sabre. In terms of price if I'm not mistaken ESS based chip is cheaper than its AKM counterpart even if 2 is used for example the imagined "dual based ESS for the D90s".

 

[Francis Vaughan]

opening the possibility that they could be ‘specials’.

For a device like this a "special" would need to be very strange. The thing that sets the Topping kit apart is really well thought out design, which eeks out that last bit of performance to get to each component's inherent capabilities. This includes critical things like PCB layout. You don't get "special" PCB layout instances of a product.
Sending Amir a "special" would be a great way to commit corporate suicide if found out. It only needs a reader to send in another random sample for confirmation testing. The stench would linger for years.
For some audio equipment specials might be possible. Anything with significant production variations. Or a cheap product where sensitivity to easily swapped better spec components would make a difference. However the latter is harder that one might think. Possible for a low end device, but not trivial, and very difficult for anything higher end where the higher spec components are already used.
Nothing guards against a devious manufacturer substituting cheaper parts in a production run once a good review or two is out there. But the danger to the brand of being caught doing so is extreme. The world of the Internet is not kind. As the aphorism goes, it takes time and effort to build up a brand, but it can be destroyed in an instant. Only a fool would endanger it. (Not that there are not fools out there. Bean counters especially.)

 

[Swtoby]

Thread posting ban issued. Keep on topic of the review. The rest of the forum is for such rants.

And no, I have no relationship whatsoever with Topping. They send me gear once in a while and I test them. They are one of the few companies that not only measure their own designs, but actually supplies AP measurements as part their manuals. So the fact that they do well on similar tests run by me is no surprise.

ASR acts as the "marketing arm" for any company that produces well designed products. It is a service to the industry to encourage better engineering. This is how it has been at the start and will continue to be so. You like a different culture? Seek that out, not make false accusations.

I can see where pma is coming from. Michael's comments didn't seem out of line, but was met with some vitriol. He just seemed to express an opinion about flac and audibility in double -blind. What's the issue? I've noted critical remarks in the reviews of other manufacturers, but no redirect from Amir. The recent Geshelli review where their choice of form factor was criticized, but not commented on by moderators comes to mind. I'm sure there is no Topping favoritism, but the quick rebuke of Michael's comments seems odd based on my experience of this forum.

 

[Newman]

For a device like this a "special" would need to be very strange. The thing that sets the Topping kit apart is really well thought out design, which eeks out that last bit of performance to get to each component's inherent capabilities. This includes critical things like PCB layout. You don't get "special" PCB layout instances of a product.
Sending Amir a "special" would be a great way to commit corporate suicide if found out. It only needs a reader to send in another random sample for confirmation testing. The stench would linger for years.
For some audio equipment specials might be possible. Anything with significant production variations. Or a cheap product where sensitivity to easily swapped better spec components would make a difference. However the latter is harder that one might think. Possible for a low end device, but not trivial, and very difficult for anything higher end where the higher spec components are already used.
Nothing guards against a devious manufacturer substituting cheaper parts in a production run once a good review or two is out there. But the danger to the brand of being caught doing so is extreme. The world of the Internet is not kind. As the aphorism goes, it takes time and effort to build up a brand, but it can be destroyed in an instant. Only a fool would endanger it. (Not that there are not fools out there. Bean counters especially.)

Linear power supplies, as per this unit, open up a few easy possibilities.

The issue isn’t whether or not it has happened here, it is that the process opens up the opportunity. The argument, that it just wouldn’t happen because of consequences, is not strong, given the corporate sector‘s overall record globally.

That’s why reviewers who are proud of their independence sometimes take these precautions.

Cheers

 

[peanuts]

form factor and looks suck. not even up/down volume but left right? get a rotary knob on all of them.

 

[raif71]

form factor and looks suck. not even up/down volume but left right? get a rotary knob on all of them.

I prefer DAC mode only... dac volumes are for ... but seriously, you can't please everyone

 

[Francis Vaughan]

get a rotary knob on all of them.

Yes. This. Heck the DX3 Pro had a proper knob. I have two of them and a D50. The stupid up down on the D50 makes it a significantly poorer experience. Just stupid.

 

[Massimo]

Yes. This. Heck the DX3 Pro had a proper knob. I have two of them and a D50. The stupid up down on the D50 makes it a significantly poorer experience. Just stupid.

I owned the D70 and the push buttons were a PITA.

 

[jackenhack]

Thanks for the RCA measurements! Unemployed at the moment, but still worth supporting this forum by Patreon.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

dac volumes are for ... but seriously, you can't please everyone

There is a very significant use case where you just run the DAC into the power amp. The days of the traditional preamp are over for many of us. Performing the volume control in the digital domain is also generally more useful all round. Reduces the number of boxes cables and grief. Frees up money to improve the system in places that matter. High quality DACs are so cheap now that it makes little sense to do anything else unless you absolutely must support legacy equipment. IMHO that is a fast shrinking niche market.

 

[JohnYang1997]

There is a very significant use case where you just run the DAC into the power amp. The days of the traditional preamp are over for many of us. Performing the volume control in the digital domain is also generally more useful all round. Reduces the number of boxes cables and grief. Frees up money to improve the system in places that matter. High quality DACs are so cheap now that it makes little sense to do anything else unless you absolutely must support legacy equipment. IMHO that is a fast shrinking niche market.

One of the things is that we all know that rotary encoder isn't all that consistent and durable. Some units will have encoder jumping, skipping etc and some are fine out of the box and developing issues over time. It's just another trade off. Analog pot + ADC isn't all that remote control friendly. Motorized pot is expensive and adds another mechanical part that can break. And the experience operating on the machine is not so different with a remote. What about improving the remote as well. Yeah we all thought about it but there really isn't a good solution. So we kept it the same as D70, D90. It's not optimal, but if it didn't break why fix it especially for an S upgrade.

 

[Mikechw]

I prefer push buttons to rotary volume control.
Good quality rotary are expensive and it still breaks with extensive uses.

(P.S. I use my D90 in DAC mode)

 

[shumi]

How did it sound?

 

[infinitesymphony]

I can see where pma is coming from. Michael's comments didn't seem out of line, but was met with some vitriol. He just seemed to express an opinion about flac and audibility in double -blind. What's the issue?

One could post a comment to the effect of "we're already past the threshold of audibility and everything that improves on where we are now is pointless" in every thread about a piece of equipment with 110 dB+ SINAD and while it may be correct in a practical sense, it doesn't contribute to any kind of understanding or discussion of the topic.