JBL 306P MK II Review (Studio Monitor)

[F1308]

But no one listens to just the fundamental frequency of an instrument...

Clearly not, but most of the music will be reproduced within a closed comfortable range (D1-A6) and its first overtones will therefore be well below 12000 Hz.

 

[PeteL]

No, it is not a sine. Thanks, God.
It is just and simply a number reflecting the tuning.
I then can clearly distinguish a metalic Yamaha from a woody Steinway.
Go and have a look at the keyboard range of XVII century harpsichords...

I will say it once more ...

I was talking about the natural first tone.
5000 Hz was embracing a higher than A4@440 tuning, such as in bag pipes, that can reach 485.
Then a matching piano will have A4@485 and C8 at 4614.12

So, do you agree that C8 second harmonics is 9228.24 Hz, the third harmonic is 13,842.36Hz, and that those two frequencies (and beyound) are included in a piano note of fundamental pitch 4614.12, I think we are getting lost in explanation here, but, binary answer, do you agree with this?

 

[infinitesymphony]

"...reducing the high-end to 10–12 kHz, will make mixes and instruments sound 'lo-fi,' replicating the poor frequency response of old recording technology."

https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/psychoacoustics-how-perception-influences-music-production.html

I don't know if you're trying to prove some particular corner case (e.g. only classical instruments with no mallets or percussion), but if you're talking about the entire catalogue of recorded music, you're not correct. Also we're way off-topic here.

 

[F1308]

Yes, the music you can play is surely tuned well below 5000 Hz.
Then comes the overtones.
But you are not placing a 100000 Hz note on the staff...
You will use the ordinary available pitches.
And you are not using A0 most of the time, not C8. Simply they are extremes.
Then comes what might come, depending on the instrument playing that note.

 

[F1308]

So, do you agree that C8 second harmonics is 9228.24 Hz, the third harmonic is 13,842.36Hz, and that those two frequencies (and beyound) are included in a piano note of fundamental pitch 4614.12, I think we are getting lost in explanation here, but, binary answer, do you agree with this?

Of course I do.
But you are not usually going that high for most of the time. That is why I say when aging we will still be hearing most of the music there is.

 

[daftcombo]

Try to listen with a filter letting only the range 40Hz - 4,000kHz.

You're listening to an old radio. Not bad but hey... not hi-fi.

 

[F1308]

Try to listen with a filter letting only the range 40Hz - 4,000kHz.

You're listening to an old radio. Not bad but hey... not hi-fi.

Once again: 5000 was the limit for the higher tuning of the note.
And I am talking 12000 as probably the 4th harmonic or overtone of the higher note most music probably have.
If you want to compose a song using C7-C8 range, do it, but hope it last merely 5 seconds. Or my money back.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Of course I do.
But you are not usually going that high for most of the time. That is why I say when aging we will still be hearing most of the music there is.

Okay, you think of music as notes, others think of music as sound. Consider it a difference of opinion.

 

[F1308]

Okay, you think of music as notes, others think of music as sound. Consider it a difference of opinion.

They both end into our ears for us to enjoy.
I wonder if hereabouts testing is done by sweeping tones or playing ordinary music.
Are we to look for those CDs having 16 Hz ?
Why should we? Because most of music does not go that low, simply because only a few huge, rare instruments can go that low. Same with the highs.
For most music.
Are we to use a subwoofer playing 5 Hz...16 Hz ?
Why if A0 is just 27,5 Hz ?
And why if most of the time music will be above 35 Hz ?

 

[Francis Vaughan]

Clearly not, but most of the music will be reproduced within a closed comfortable range (D1-A6) and its first overtones will therefore be well below 12000 Hz.

The fallacy is that musical timbre is based entirely upon the overtones of the note's fundamental. (The second fallacy is that if you take the highest audible harmonic of the highest note, that frequency is the highest. This isn't mathematically correct. You can use a higher order harmonic of a note with a lower fundamental frequency to get even higher frequency, and thus get as close to 20kHz as you wish.)
But the core problem is that no real world instrument has its character only determined by the harmonic series of its fundamental pitch. The sound created during the attack of most instruments is rich in energy, especially any percussive instrument (and we must include the piano here) and plucked instruments. Next, few instruments only create energy from one mode of vibration. In addition to the harmonnics of the notional pitch, instruments have lots of other interesting modes of vibration. Strings vibrate longitudinally, wind instruments have all sorts of interesting add ons from the nature of their geometry, and so on. There is a huge amount of stuff that doesn't form part of the neat harmonic series of the note that is part of the timbre.

 

[daftcombo]

Those highs we all are going to lose are a matter of too much talk about nothing, since music ends much lower than 5000 Hz. With piano tuned at A4=440 Hz means C8, last 88 key, sounds at 4186.01 Hz. That age related hearing loss means you won't hear 15000, but only 12000. So wide latitude still given to enjoy the very last nuisances of music... including harmonics.

How do you explain old people needing others to repeat then? Human voice is around 200 Hz - 400 Hz.
What you say is hardly believable.

 

[waynel]

The fallacy is that musical timbre is based entirely upon the overtones of the note's fundamental.

It's worse than that, he is for the most part claiming that needed music bandwidth is determined only by the fundamental pitch.

 

[restorer-john]

wind instruments have all sorts of interesting add ons from the nature of their geometry, and so on.

Flutes contain a bunch of ultrasonics well above 20KHz. So do vacuum cleaners and air compressors. Lucky we aren't using air compressors and vacuum cleaners in music- we'd all have dead tweeters.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

Lucky we aren't using air compressors and vacuum cleaners in music- we'd all have dead tweeters.

 

[F1308]

How do you explain old people needing others to repeat then? Human voice is around 200 Hz - 400 Hz.
What you say is hardly believable.

Hearing loss surely has many different ways to damage your hearing.
Might come from infection, improperly performed ear cleaning, severe expose to extremely high sound levels, continuous expose to high [>85dB] sound levels...
I was talking about the shifting from 15000 to 12000 that natural aging seems to avert.

 

[F1308]

Flutes contain a bunch of ultrasonics well above 20KHz. So do vacuum cleaners and air compressors. Lucky we aren't using air compressors and vacuum cleaners in music- we'd all have dead tweeters.

And you can surely go and extend those overtones to the infinite and be sure some creatures will be enjoying them or, who knows, be bothered by them.
But we humans stop at 20 kHz.
Boys reach 16000.
Then come to 15000.
Then 12000....

 

[restorer-john]

Not a lot of "air" in that dusty old recording. The life has been sucked right out of it. Definitely needs "cleaning up" if you ask me.

 

[ROOSKIE]

How do you explain old people needing others to repeat then? Human voice is around 200 Hz - 400 Hz.
What you say is hardly believable.

Well, many older people have hearing loss in the midrange, that is where damage is likely to occur (loud concerts, military, construction, factory work.
Higher frequency hearing loss is usually present in older folks as well but that is not likely causing them have trouble hearing speech.

I think the poster who started this tangent is a little confused about HiFi vs just getting 80% of the sound.
Yes a speaker that plays to about 5-8k is giving you a big chunk of the sound content but that is not what we all want here

I suppose the best way for anyone to test whether they appreciate speakers that provide sound energy above a certain frequency is to remove the content with EQ or active-xover and listen.
If you are happy with a 4-8k cut-off then no need for HiFi. Save $$

Flutes contain a bunch of ultrasonics well above 20KHz. So do vacuum cleaners and air compressors. Lucky we aren't using air compressors and vacuum cleaners in music- we'd all have dead tweeters.

Everyone who uses their speakers for home theater is doing this.
I also listen to tons of electronic music.
There is everything under the sun in that kind of music.

Hearing loss surely has many different ways to damage your hearing.
Might come from infection, improperly performed ear cleaning, severe expose to extremely high sound levels, continuous expose to high [>85dB] sound levels...
I was talking about the shifting from 15000 to 12000 that natural aging seems to avert.

Seem like along the way you stated some other stuff that didn't quite make sense. Yes we will loose some high frequency extension and yet audio will likely still sound very good due to still being able to take in most of the good stuff.

 

[F1308]

Well, many older people have hearing loss in the midrange, that is where damage is likely to occur (loud concerts, military, construction, factory work.
Higher frequency hearing loss is usually present in older folks as well but that is not likely causing them have trouble hearing speech.

I think the poster who started this tangent is a little confused about HiFi vs just getting 80% of the sound.
Yes a speaker that plays to about 5-8k is giving you a big chunk of the sound content but that is not what we all want here

I suppose the best way for anyone to test whether they appreciate speakers that provide sound energy above a certain frequency is to remove the content with EQ or active-xover and listen.
If you are happy with a 4-8k cut-off then no need for HiFi. Save $$

Everyone who uses their speakers for home theater is doing this.
I also listen to tons of electronic music.
There is everything under the sun in that kind of music.

Seem like along the way you stated some other stuff that didn't quite make sense. Yes we will loose some high frequency extension and yet audio will likely still sound very good due to still being able to take in most of the good stuff.

That is it.
Regardless of our future hearing loss, we still will be able to hear and enjoy MOST of the music.
Easy !!!!

 

[F1308]

The fallacy is that musical timbre is based entirely upon the overtones of the note's fundamental. (The second fallacy is that if you take the highest audible harmonic of the highest note, that frequency is the highest. This isn't mathematically correct. You can use a higher order harmonic of a note with a lower fundamental frequency to get even higher frequency, and thus get as close to 20kHz as you wish.)
But the core problem is that no real world instrument has its character only determined by the harmonic series of its fundamental pitch. The sound created during the attack of most instruments is rich in energy, especially any percussive instrument (and we must include the piano here) and plucked instruments. Next, few instruments only create energy from one mode of vibration. In addition to the harmonnics of the notional pitch, instruments have lots of other interesting modes of vibration. Strings vibrate longitudinally, wind instruments have all sorts of interesting add ons from the nature of their geometry, and so on. There is a huge amount of stuff that doesn't form part of the neat harmonic series of the note that is part of the timbre.

I know.
Hermann Helmoltz explained it very well.
But regardless of the combinations of overtones, be them harmonic or not, your hearing stops at 20Khz.
And if you play within a given, ordinary musical range, upper frequencies coming from those overtones will be lower...and perceived. And heard.