How to become a serious audiophile

[Analog Scott]

Of course, digital is theoretically far superior, but typical implementations of the playback chain were sloppy - "the accuracy of digital will fix everything!!" - ummm, no ...

Which is why CD had terrible early decades, I was amazed at how awful systems usually sounded - "Can't the people making this gear hear how poor the sound is, in certain areas?!" ... probably too busy "listening" to their measuring gear, instead .

There is actually a technical reason for the greater perceptual sense of dynamics for records.

 

[Thomas savage]

Because it says so on the packet?


View attachment 9986


View attachment 9988


Contained within that somewhat subjective 'blurb' are statements that attract the interest of enquiring minds, e.g.

* groove width that is up to 350% wider than specified by the Standard for microgroove LPs. Why? How does this affect cartridges designed for discs with standardised grooves" This was pertinent in the thread Objective Measurements Of Phono Cartridges in which it first appeared. A max. groove width of 280 microns gives a depth of 140(not 280 as stated) micron for a standardised groove included angle of 90 degrees.

* no equalisation - raises questions about reproducing on the record the dynamic range of the orchestras on the SAR discs.

* special vacuum tubes developed by our technical staff.


This discussion started at about post 101 here: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-measurements-of-phono-cartridges.1939/page-6

From what I can see the support for the particular LP jacket claims is hearsay or not relevant.

Yes, this is the limit of the available information.

It tells us all we can know, as Iv mentioned the discussion can’t go forward without more information and deeper knowledge of the process being shared here.

But that’s not stopped you all going on and on chewing on fresh air lol

Oh it’s so heartwarming and inspirational to see some of you dig up the ‘ vinyl vs digital ‘ agenda again, a much maligned topic indeed.

 

[Wombat]

There is actually a technical reason for the greater perceptual sense of dynamics for records.

Is it your little secret? Or are we being set up for another mind-reading exercise, for goodness sake?

 

[Thomas savage]

If I wanted to capture and playback a full drum kit , retaining as much of the inherent dynamic range possible and assuming my playback scenario was real word but the better side of real world what the best way to do it?

Or

If I wanted to capture a full orchestra, playing say Beethoven’s 5th ?

 

[Wombat]

Yes, this is the limit of the available information.

It tells us all we can know, as Iv mentioned the discussion can’t go forward without more information and deeper knowledge of the process being shared here.

But that’s not stopped you all going on and on chewing on fresh air lol

Oh it’s so heartwarming and inspirational to see some of you dig up the ‘ vinyl vs digital ‘ agenda again, a much maligned topic indeed.
View attachment 9989

 

[March Audio]

There’s some specialist guy making esoteric vinyl records, clearly not representative of the vast majority of vinyl production.

I’m genuinely bemused as to why such a big deal has been made of this, it’s frankly dumbfounding.

You would be mistaken if you think the "big deal" was about vinyl. The problem was never about vinyl, nothing to do with it at all. The problem was the classic forum game of semantics, pedantry and circular, deliberate and pointless argumentativeness which derailed the discussion. Something this forum is almost entirely devoid of thankfully. Even when the "argument" had actually ceased it was brought up again. When I see this behavior I call it out.

 

[Wombat]

Yes, this is the limit of the available information.

It tells us all we can know, as Iv mentioned the discussion can’t go forward without more information and deeper knowledge of the process being shared here.

But that’s not stopped you all going on and on chewing on fresh air lol

Oh it’s so heartwarming and inspirational to see some of you dig up the ‘ vinyl vs digital ‘ agenda again, a much maligned topic indeed.
View attachment 9989

Well, you stated Analog Scott was a winner. Huh?

Audioscience schmience!

 

[Analog Scott]

Is it your little secret? Or are we being set up for another mind-reading exercise, for goodness sake?

No, it's not a secret. But if you think you can read minds knock yourself out.

 

[Analog Scott]

If I wanted to capture and playback a full drum kit , retaining as much of the inherent dynamic range possible and assuming my playback scenario was real word but the better side of real world what the best way to do it?

Or

If I wanted to capture a full orchestra, playing say Beethoven’s 5th ?

IMO. I'd go digital for the drum kit an all analog to 45 rpm record for the symphonic music. As long as we are limiting this to stereo recording and playback.

 

[Wombat]

Typic

No, it's not a secret. But if you think you can read minds knock yourself out.

Typical comment.

OK. Pleeeeaaaasssse enlighten us.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Kevin Gray's direct quote.

"The phonograph record is a marvelous medium for storing and reproducing sound. With frequency response from 7 Hz to 25kHz and over 75 dB dynamic range possible, it is capable of startling realism."

I suppose I took some liberty in saying 76 db. I will revise it to >75 db

Sorry, but if that is a direct quote he doesn't know what he is talking about and seems to me to just be leaping onto the gravy train. There is a LOT of money being made out of astonishingly overpriced hardware and software from LPs at the moment.
Accurate 7Hz is DEFINITELY not possible from a 33rpm LP if you want to play the music part of the frequency range properly.
To be precise, if you cut a 7Hz signal onto an LP (possible), and wanted to reproduce the amplitude correctly it using a traditional phono pickup cartridge, the amount of extra damping needed to limit the excitation of the transducer fundamental resonance enough to get it anywhere near right would mean its response in the audible range was ruined and the phase would probably be wrong. As an acedemic excercise I know it has been done (by a friend of mine who used a car suspension type analogy) but a proper record player would be hopeless if such a pointless capability was included in its engineering.
75dB dynamic range may be possible at mid frequencies, if half speed direct cut of cut from digital master not R2R tape. It seems doubtful to me but I have no evidence to disprove it.
25kHz is possible, but at restricted level. IMO the lack of a hard hf limit on LPs is countered by the inability of a cutter head to record high levels of HF.

The performance envelope of digital is clear cut and defined.

The performance envelope of analogue systems is wooly, and depends on lots of compromises like acceptable distortion levels and manufacturing adventurousness.
The low frequency limit of tape recorders and LPs is vague and the response uneven, on tape because of tape head shape (bass woodles) and on LP because the influence of operating near the LF limit of a seismic transducer means considerable variations are likely.
The dynamic range depends with tape on how much saturation and overload distortion you are prepared to tolerate - a difficult one since tape overload can sound quite nice, and a digital plugin simulating it is often used on digital recordings, funnily enough.
On LP it depends not only on how high a level can be cut, but also how high a level can be tracked by the cartridge/arm system which varies a LOT with cartridges in particular. Frankly, whilst there may be a possibility of cutting 75dB of dynamic range onto a disc no cartridge I know, that I actually like listening to, would be able to play it - including Koetsu fwiw.

 

[Wombat]

That is a considered practical summary of reality vs conjecture.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Which is why CD had terrible early decades, I was amazed at how awful systems usually sounded.

Disagree. CD sounded good from the start. There were certainly some poor discs made, but one of my favourite and most listened to CDs was one of the first ever released and still sounds fantastic.
Nimbus "Baccanales" by Equale Brass from 1983. Digitally recorded using a Calrec soundfield mike, so plenty of digital sums going on all the way from the beginning.
I DO think a lot of hifi systems didn't match CD players early on, both because their frequency bablance had been suited toi the LPs their owners played, and because a lot of preamps were overloaded by the 2V output of CD players (necessary to keep the quiet bits of CDs high dynamic range out of the noise) compared to the typical 0.2V of the tuners and tape recorders normal at the time.

 

[Wombat]

Medium capability must not be confused with how it is used.

 

[Cosmik]

I think people are missing the vital clues in the SAD blurb:

...As a result, the record may contain a little hiss, hum and background noise if they are on the master tape. The reasons for this are the wide frequency range and the fact that no technical alterations are made to the master tape in the cutting process...

USAGE GUIDELINES...
...If the natural level of hiss or background noise on the record are bothersome, adjust the control amplifier accordingly.

The highlighted words are the 'sleight of hand' that have been inserted to divert attention away from the noise contribution of vinyl itself. They are seeking to blame the tape (as if that makes it OK) rather than their special vinyl-isation. What is really being said is that vinyl is inherently noisy, and even if you reduce playing time by allowing wider grooves, etc., without dynamic range compression the noise will be "bothersome". You should adjust your amplifier accordingly. I don't recall such instructions being included with an 'audiophile' digital recording...

For anyone who would like to quote the text, I OCR-ed it:

'PRODUCTION GOALS Master analogue tapes are used to produce each and every "Super Analogue Disc" in or-der to achieve the highest quality possible, taking full advantage of the special charact-eristics and appeal of analogue recording. Compact discs (CDs), now the main media on which music is recorded, also have a number of strong features. However, it is an accepted fact in the music world that the expertise acquired in the long years of analogue disc production enables music to be produced with a beauty unattainable from the technical charact-eristics of high-tech CDs. We are proceed-ing with research and development of analogue audio technology to reproduce a softer, more refined sound. The "Super Analogue Disc" has already won high acclaim among connoisseurs of music in Japan, as well as around the world. Produced for people who truly appreciate the value of great music, this new series of records is manufactured at a plant eq-uipped with the highest quality pressing techniques.
•SUPERIOR QUALITIES (1) Frequency Range : A cutting (mastering) system with an extremely wide range of 10Hz to 45kHz is used to provide the lar-gest frequency range possible. This ensures the select master tapes are utilized to their fullest, recording the full spectrum of sound from very low bass to the highest treble. (2) Transient Response : Clear, instant-aneous reaction gives music outstanding momentum and superior resolution. (3) Dynamic Range : Technically, dynamic range refers to the range from the mini-mum noise level to the maximum level. Special priority was placed on providing the quality necessary to precisely repro-duce the full range of musical energy generated whether performed pianissimo or fortissimo. For example, analogue re-cordings have the unique ability to give fortissimo music tensional power. (4) Low Distortion : Clean, crisp tone charact-eristics and superior resolution ensures music is never offensive to the ear, no matter how high the volume is turn up. (5) High Density : A smoothness found only with analogue recording gives the sounds of instruments and voices a special warmth that people can identify with. Each and every little change and expression that artists impart to their music is faithfully reproduced, representing what music really should be.
THE SUPER ANALOGUE DISC
•PRODUCTION PROCESS (1 ) Direct Connection : The head amplifier of the tape recorder used for reproduction is directly connected to the cutting power amplifier, with no extraneous equipment such as a graphic equalizer, pass filter or limiter. (The bypass circuit is shown in the block diagram.) This enables flat trans-mission of the master tape signal to the cutter head, substantially improving transient characteristics and virtually eliminating deterioration of sound quality, for an extremely natural and fresh sound. As a result, the record may contain a little hiss, hum and background noise if they are on the master tape. The reasons for this are the wide frequency range and the fact that no technical alterations are made to the master tape in the cutting process. (2) Half-Speed Cutting : By reducing both the tape and cutting speed by half, groove cutting accuracy has been considerably enhanced, yielding a wider frequency range and maximum recording density. This technology requires an especially high level of expertise. Specifically, groove width on the "Super Analogue Disc" is between 30 and 280 microns maximum. (Normally, the approximate width is between 30 and 80 microns.) This attests to how high the maximum level really is. (3) Vacuum Tube Amplifiers : Special vacu-um tubes developed by our technical staff
are incorporated in the high power cutting amplifier (Effective output : 300W + 300W) and head amplifier. These provide power to spare, giving music a richness only found with an analogue sound. (4) Heavier Weight Disc : The "Super Analogue Disc" weighs approximately 180 grams, 60 percent more than standard records. This allows the extra deep grooves of 30 to a maximum of 280 microns to be cut and minimizes resonance when the record is being played. In particular, the heavier disc weight is especially effective in stabilizing the sound of music at a high level and bass sounds. (5) High Quality Material : The metal mat-rix is produced with extreme caution during a time-consuming plating process. Combined with very specially selected mat-erials and careful processing, the finished product reproduces the sound on the lacquer master, with almost perfect accuracy and improved sound-to-noise ratio.
With the wide range of specialists over-seeing every aspect of its development and production, the "Super Analogue Disc" is indeed a handcrafted product, made using an entirely different production process from normal record production lines.
BLOCK DIAGRAMS OF DISC MASTERING SYSTEM
TAPE REPRODUCER
MAGNETIC HEAD
PRE-AMP (TUBE)
(THE SUPER ANALOGUE DISC)
DIRECT CONNECTING
•USAGE GUIDELINES (1 ) Cartridge and Player System : Take special care with regard to stylus chip wear and the adherence of any dust. We recom-mend that the stylus chip be cleaned after playing one side of the record. Stylus force should be set at the recom-mended value or slightly heavier. Extreme caution should be exercised when adjusting the tone arm to ensure optimum tracing of the micro-groove-(2) Cleaning of Dust : The record surface should be cleaned in such a way to prevent any dust from being forced down into the deep grooves, which could result in a higher noise level. (3) Amplifiers : If the natural level of hiss or background noise on the record are bothersome, adjust the control amplifier accordingly. The higher the output of the main amplifier, the more powerful the music sounds. High-end audiophiles, as well as many other users with quality audio equipment, appreciate the special sound that analogue discs reproduce, even after experiencing compact discs. We are confident that the "Super Analogue Disc" represents a new dimension in enjoyment for the true music lover. Nov, 1992. Motohiko Takawa
STAFF OF THE "SUPER ANALOGUE DISC" (KING RECORDS, JAPAN) PRODUCER : MOTOHIKO TAKAW A A & R : MINORU FLTKUDA MASTERING ENGINEER AKIRA MAKINO ASST. ENGINEERS : TERUHLKO AOKI, HISAO NISHIDA
MADE IN U.S. A.

 

[Analog Scott]

Sorry, but if that is a direct quote he doesn't know what he is talking about and seems to me to just be leaping onto the gravy train. There is a LOT of money being made out of astonishingly overpriced hardware and software from LPs at the moment.
Accurate 7Hz is DEFINITELY not possible from a 33rpm LP if you want to play the music part of the frequency range properly.
To be precise, if you cut a 7Hz signal onto an LP (possible), and wanted to reproduce the amplitude correctly it using a traditional phono pickup cartridge, the amount of extra damping needed to limit the excitation of the transducer fundamental resonance enough to get it anywhere near right would mean its response in the audible range was ruined and the phase would probably be wrong. As an acedemic excercise I know it has been done (by a friend of mine who used a car suspension type analogy) but a proper record player would be hopeless if such a pointless capability was included in its engineering.
75dB dynamic range may be possible at mid frequencies, if half speed direct cut of cut from digital master not R2R tape. It seems doubtful to me but I have no evidence to disprove it.
25kHz is possible, but at restricted level. IMO the lack of a hard hf limit on LPs is countered by the inability of a cutter head to record high levels of HF.

The performance envelope of digital is clear cut and defined.

The performance envelope of analogue systems is wooly, and depends on lots of compromises like acceptable distortion levels and manufacturing adventurousness.
The low frequency limit of tape recorders and LPs is vague and the response uneven, on tape because of tape head shape (bass woodles) and on LP because the influence of operating near the LF limit of a seismic transducer means considerable variations are likely.
The dynamic range depends with tape on how much saturation and overload distortion you are prepared to tolerate - a difficult one since tape overload can sound quite nice, and a digital plugin simulating it is often used on digital recordings, funnily enough.
On LP it depends not only on how high a level can be cut, but also how high a level can be tracked by the cartridge/arm system which varies a LOT with cartridges in particular. Frankly, whilst there may be a possibility of cutting 75dB of dynamic range onto a disc no cartridge I know, that I actually like listening to, would be able to play it - including Koetsu fwiw.

He didn't say 33 rpm LP. Much of his best work was done at 45 rpm.

 

[Analog Scott]

I think people are missing the vital clues in the SAD blurb:

The highlighted words are the 'sleight of hand' that have been inserted to divert attention away from the noise contribution of vinyl itself. They are seeking to blame the tape (as if that makes it OK) rather than their special vinyl-isation. What is really being said is that vinyl is inherently noisy, and even if you reduce playing time by allowing wider grooves, etc., without dynamic range compression the noise will be "bothersome". You should adjust your amplifier accordingly. I don't recall such instructions being included with an 'audiophile' digital recording...

For anyone who would like to quote the text, I OCR-ed it:

Groove noise and tape hiss do not sound similar. I have many of these LPs and they are not particularly noisy. Quite the opposite actually. Compressing the signal fed to the cutter head does not reduce groove noise either. The notes never say the tape hiss will be bothersome, and for me it isn't. Nor does it suggest any adjustments should be made to your amplifier. You also seem to be conflating the recording medium with the playback medium. These are LPs. Some of them are sourced from analog tape, some are sourced from digital recordings.

 

[Analog Scott]

Typic

Typical comment.

OK. Pleeeeaaaasssse enlighten us.

Ask JJ Johnston. You will get a better answer than you will from me.

 

[Cosmik]

Compressing the signal fed to the cutter head does not reduce groove noise either.

Who said it did? What it does is maintain a higher level of masking of the groove noise by the signal even in the 'quiet bits'.

The notes never say the tape hiss will be bothersome... Nor does it suggest any adjustments should be made to your amplifier.

I think you missed the quote I included above! Whether it's the tape hiss you are singling out (another sleight of hand?), or the record...
Here it is again, printed bigger.

USAGE GUIDELINES...
...If the natural level of hiss or background noise on the record are bothersome, adjust the control amplifier accordingly.

 

[Analog Scott]

Sorry, but if that is a direct quote he doesn't know what he is talking about and seems to me to just be leaping onto the gravy train. There is a LOT of money being made out of astonishingly overpriced hardware and software from LPs at the moment.
Accurate 7Hz is DEFINITELY not possible from a 33rpm LP if you want to play the music part of the frequency range properly.
To be precise, if you cut a 7Hz signal onto an LP (possible), and wanted to reproduce the amplitude correctly it using a traditional phono pickup cartridge, the amount of extra damping needed to limit the excitation of the transducer fundamental resonance enough to get it anywhere near right would mean its response in the audible range was ruined and the phase would probably be wrong. As an acedemic excercise I know it has been done (by a friend of mine who used a car suspension type analogy) but a proper record player would be hopeless if such a pointless capability was included in its engineering.
75dB dynamic range may be possible at mid frequencies, if half speed direct cut of cut from digital master not R2R tape. It seems doubtful to me but I have no evidence to disprove it.
25kHz is possible, but at restricted level. IMO the lack of a hard hf limit on LPs is countered by the inability of a cutter head to record high levels of HF.

The performance envelope of digital is clear cut and defined.

The performance envelope of analogue systems is wooly, and depends on lots of compromises like acceptable distortion levels and manufacturing adventurousness.
The low frequency limit of tape recorders and LPs is vague and the response uneven, on tape because of tape head shape (bass woodles) and on LP because the influence of operating near the LF limit of a seismic transducer means considerable variations are likely.
The dynamic range depends with tape on how much saturation and overload distortion you are prepared to tolerate - a difficult one since tape overload can sound quite nice, and a digital plugin simulating it is often used on digital recordings, funnily enough.
On LP it depends not only on how high a level can be cut, but also how high a level can be tracked by the cartridge/arm system which varies a LOT with cartridges in particular. Frankly, whilst there may be a possibility of cutting 75dB of dynamic range onto a disc no cartridge I know, that I actually like listening to, would be able to play it - including Koetsu fwiw.

Here is a claim of 100db dynamic range.
https://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Goldfinger-Statement-Phono-Cartridge