Cheap drivers in high end monitors / speakers

[AnalogSteph]

I know literally nothing about watches (I just googled "watch movement" lol), but I would imagine mechanical watches like those of Seiko and Rolex are inferior when it comes to keeping time compared with digital alternatives? Am I wrong?

Not usually, though it is not uncommon to see vintage quartz movements steadily run fast by about half a second to around a full second a day (ironically, the worst offenders tend to be adjustable movements, presumably oxidation of trimmer caps is playing a role here, but my usual watchmaker around here won't touch these - even as much as 1 s/d still barely registers on his equipment). When it comes to keeping time, the best in my collection right now is a basically noname job with a GDR movement that technically was almost a decade out of date even when it came out on 1987 - go figure.

That said, Chinese mechanical movements in particular are notorious for the odd bit of contamination, even if the design itself is basically sound. So it's largely a matter of production standards.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I wonder how much that famous ATC soft dome mid costs.

 

[Purité Audio]

It really isn’t about cost but performance and with the loudspeakers it is the ‘whole’ rather than the parts.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I wonder how much that famous ATC soft dome mid costs.

According to this, £387.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Now that's somewhat expensive and befitting of the price ATC charges for their monitors

 

[andreasmaaan]

Now that's somewhat expensive and befitting of the price ATC charges for their monitors

That seems like circular logic, given it's ATC that determines the price of the driver

 

[Pearljam5000]

Lol
If most mids cost 100€ and they sell theirs for 380£ to other companies than I guess it's better than most drivers out there because if it's overpriced than it wouldn't sale

 

[andreasmaaan]

Lol
If most mids cost 100€ and they sell theirs for 380£ to other companies than I guess it's better than most drivers out there because if it's overpriced than it wouldn't sale

£387 is the cost to the public. There are measurements of the driver in that link I posted a couple of posts back. It's also a very good midrange.

 

[sigbergaudio]

As any other product, it's not just about picking it apart, looking at the price of the parts, and then assuming things about whether the margin is high or low. The research and development, engineering and knowledge and experience that goes into making a good product is what you pay for, not the parts. You also pay for completely "unrelated" things to the actual speaker, like advertising and shipping and office buildings and whatnot, again, just like any other product. Lots of invisible cost.

You also pay for things not necessarily directly connected to the sound at all. Like "seven layers of lacquer" or whatever, which makes it look good in the living room and makes you feel good looking at, knowing "I own this good looking, well built thing". It doesn't make it sound any better, but it's an expensive part of the building process. For many speakers, the cabinet itself is as expensive or more expensive than the electronics and drivers.

 

[Willem]

For many speakers, the cabinet itself is as expensive or more expensive than the electronics and drivers.

And this is of course where the design skill of the best mass market brands comes in. They are masters at designing good looking stuff that is cheap to manufacture.

 

[CDMC]

I know literally nothing about watches (I just googled "watch movement" lol), but I would imagine mechanical watches like those of Seiko and Rolex are inferior when it comes to keeping time compared with digital alternatives? Am I wrong?

You don’t buy mechanical watches for accuracy.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Parts cost to retail price in speakers will usually be between a 1 to 5 and 1 to 10 ratio.

Yeah, the BOM will usually be around 10% of the MSRP, and when you consider the overheads, and the cost of the intermediaries, it's probably fair.
Though I do wonder about certain manufacturers including a late gentleman in Utah who was reguarly seen tooling around Salt Lake City in a Ferrari.

Bet his company had and continues to have the highest markups of all.

 

[andreasmaaan]

You don’t buy mechanical watches for accuracy.

This was precisely my implication

 

[CDMC]

And this is of course where the design skill of the best mass market brands comes in. They are masters at designing good looking stuff that is cheap to manufacture.

I would argue that this is where real skills, knowledge and and experience come into play. Anyone halfway decent designer should be able to build a great speaker for $10,000. Building a good $500 pair of speakers separates the men from the boys (to use the old expression).

 

[CDMC]

Yeah, the BOM will usually be around 10% of the MSRP, and when you consider the overheads, and the cost of the intermediaries, it's probably fair.

This is one place that direct sellers definitely have an advantage. It costs a lot to transport speakers an extra time not to mention the cost for a dealer to keep a storefront, pay the rent and employees, and make some profit. I think Crutchfield is on to something with their flat $75 returns for speakers. I have to think not a lot of large speakers come back. For direct sellers, they might consider a demo pair, person pays $100 plus shipping both ways, if they buy a pair, they get $150 off.

 

[AnalogSteph]

As any other product, it's not just about picking it apart, looking at the price of the parts, and then assuming things about whether the margin is high or low. The research and development, engineering and knowledge and experience that goes into making a good product is what you pay for, not the parts.

You also pay for things not necessarily directly connected to the sound at all. Like "seven layers of lacquer" or whatever, which makes it look good in the living room and makes you feel good looking at, knowing "I own this good looking, well built thing". It doesn't make it sound any better, but it's an expensive part of the building process. For many speakers, the cabinet itself is as expensive or more expensive than the electronics and drivers.

Economy of scale plays a major role, too. When selling a lot of units, overhead costs can be spread much better, bringing overall pricing down. So mere sales volume by itself allows for better bang/buck. This has some interesting (nonlinear) effects.

 

[Willem]

And in electronics tried and tested mass market designs like the Yamaha as501/701/801amplifiers have paid for R&D cost ages ago.

 

[CDMC]

Lol
If most mids cost 100€ and they sell theirs for 380£ to other companies than I guess it's better than most drivers out there because if it's overpriced than it wouldn't sale

You assume a perfect market with widely available information. You also assume that ATC is selling to people building speakers, not needing a driver for speakers they have. I think both are likely incorrect assumptions.

 

[escape2]

Completely OT, a bit of a rant: I am a Mercedes owner ... A Kia is likely more reliable than any ICE Mercedes currently produced ... I will never buy another M-B car ...

If you're buying MB for reliability, you are buying it for the wrong reason.

 

[Ericglo]

That's why I would buy a product from a company like Genelec, they make the drivers in house and you know they'd still be here in 30 years.

Hilarious. How do you know that Genelec will be around in 10 years? The list is long of companies that were thought to be unbreakable.

Completely OT, a bit of a rant: I am a Mercedes owner ... A Kia is likely more reliable than any ICE Mercedes currently produced ... I will never buy another M-B car ...

I own both. My E diesel is better than the my Optima, but the Kia is a nice car for the money.