Soundstage and image

[skymusic20]

Hello all.

I frequently read people talking about soundstage and image, sometimes they seem to mean the same, sometimes not.

I usually read that "this" particular DAC/cartridge/stylus/Phono Peamp/speakers provide much better image/soundstage...

I understand image as the identification of particular instruments in a spatial distribution.

If you go to listen to a classical music orchestra, then you will certainly know where is the flute, the cello, the triangle, the harp, (and so on and so on) even if you close your eyes.

Soundstage: I understand that soundstage is related to the natural echos, reverberations and delays that are particular to every music hall.

The same classical music orchestra may not sound the same if they play in different concert halls because of different acoustic properties.

(I understand that some DSP try to artificially mimic soundstage by providing hall, disco, club, church, live room, stadium, etc, etc, a fancy feature very much disliked by audiophiles)

I wonder how can a DAC/Phono preamp/speakers/cartridge/stylus have any impact on image and/or soundstage?

I think image/soundstage depends only on how the music was recorded and I find it hard to understand that a DAC or a phono preamp or even speakers can have a big impact on image/soundstage.

Hope someone can say something about it.

Thanks all!

 

[Wes]

I think it is over rated...

 

[andreasmaaan]

Speakers and rooms do affect these things, because they affect image precision, apparent source width (scale), and spaciousness. However, I think you're right when you say that these things are all also quite strongly determined by the recording.

FYI, various versions of this thread have actually been done before

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/soundstage.7211/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/soundstage-imaging-etc.16553/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...lections-isnt-there-a-price-to-be-paid.16687/

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Obviously, what is on the recording is what you can hear. Part from that, speakers, positioning and room affect how the instruments are perceived to be laid out, as well as the room acoustic information from the recording.

A truly holographic presentation is something many audiophiles appreciate, and those who experience this for the first time, are often quite surprised.

As for the rest of the audio chain - amps, dacs, processors - only affect this hologrphy/3d if they are defective.

For me, a realistic 3d presentation is one of the 2 main aspects of truly great music reproduction.

 

[Chromatischism]

For me, a realistic 3d presentation is one of the 2 main aspects of truly great music reproduction.

It's all good until you turn the lights off

 

[Kvalsvoll]

It's all good until you turn the lights off

I often listen in a dark room, it also helps to close your eyes when listening. Which makes sense, since blind listening is recommended.

 

[restorer-john]

The entire process from end to end is an illusion. Some combinations of performances, recordings and reproduction equipment can better create that illusion, others cannot, and more often than not, all you hear is the sound.

Don't obsess over it, or believe all the garbage written by HiFi scribes. Just get good gear, experiment with speaker placement and listening position and enjoy quality reproduction.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Soundstage/imaging is extremely important to me also, which is why my old speakers were Magnepan 3.6's. Switched a few years ago to JBL 4367's based off the M2 project, which also have fantastic imaging. Using two annular drivers inside JBL's latest waveguide technology, I find their imaging is more focused, while still being wide in scope. In fact the M2 was designed to have 3D imaging that could beat ribbon speakers.

 

[Wes]

where is Dr. 5 channels when we need him?

 

[win]

My opinion is that good imaging and soundstage are equivalent to not having a room EQ the hell out of your music to the point where your brain is no longer able to spatially process the music.

I'd also wager that most imaging issues are related to phase, not frequency response.

 

[skymusic20]

Don't obsess over it, or believe all the garbage written by HiFi scribes. Just get good gear, experiment with speaker placement and listening position and enjoy quality reproduction.

Thats it...

I often read about people who claim "Oh, this DAC dramatically increased soundstage and image"... "Oh, this phono preamp, was a night day experience, now I feel totally immersed when listen to my vinyl records, huge and deep soundstage/image"

But Im not sure about that...

 

[Chromatischism]

I often listen in a dark room, it also helps to close your eyes when listening. Which makes sense, since blind listening is recommended.

What I meant is that soundstage depth seems to be mostly created by the ability to see the space in your room behind the speakers when you have them pulled out from the wall. With the lights out, and with no visual cues, soundstage is restricted to the plane of the speakers.

Note, I have not experienced dipole or panel speakers which radiate rearward and could give a different experience. I just don't know.

 

[Chromatischism]

I'd also wager that most imaging issues are related to phase, not frequency response.

How about:

• Asymmetrical speaker placement causing time and level differences
• Bad off-axis frequency response causing reflections to combine at your ears that don't match the direct sound

 

[Kal Rubinson]

where is Dr. 5 channels when we need him?

I say, presumptuously, watching.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

What I meant is that soundstage depth seems to be mostly created by the ability to see the space in your room behind the speakers when you have them pulled out from the wall. With the lights out, and with no visual cues, soundstage is restricted to the plane of the speakers.

Note, I have not experienced dipole or panel speakers which radiate rearward and could give a different experience. I just don't know.

I know. I have had both. Come to think of it, I have actually had all sorts of speakers.

So, turning off the lights does not destroy perception of depth. If it was there, it is still there with lights off. But since you can not see the front wall and the speakers, you do not have the visual clues that destroys the perception of distance - no lights == better depth.

Depth is kind of complex, several factors affect perception, and there are different aspects of depth - the huge depth in some special recordings (Flashbulb - California Dreaming), or placement of instruments - are they generally in front or behind the plane of the speakers (which obviously affect all recordings).

Panels do not necessarily have better depth, but they do generally present a different soundstage. I had 2 images.. can I find them.. One is how the ss is from the panels, other with trad speakers, like how I remember from a looooooong time ago when I noticed the very different way those speakers present the music.

Found the illustration, text is in Norwegian but I can live with that:

 

[TitaniumTroy]

I agree depth is more complex, but nice when you can get it. Horizontal or width is easier to find in recording and speakers. I like speakers that image outside physical limitations of the speakers outer edges. Otherwise they sound boxy, or closed in, destroying the illusion, constantly reminding yourself that you are listening to speakers.

 

[Chromatischism]

So, turning off the lights does not destroy perception of depth. If it was there, it is still there with lights off. But since you can not see the front wall and the speakers, you do not have the visual clues that destroys the perception of distance - no lights == better depth.

In my room I seem to get the opposite effect. I perceive depth more when I can see what's behind the speakers. Either way, lights on or off, drums sound much closer to me, like the picture on the left (but not sticking forward like that), but I'm using traditional speakers.

 

[Harmonie]

The entire process from end to end is an illusion. Some combinations of performances, recordings and reproduction equipment can better create that illusion, others cannot, and more often than not, all you hear is the sound.

Don't obsess over it, or believe all the garbage written by HiFi scribes. Just get good gear, experiment with speaker placement and listening position and enjoy quality reproduction.

Don't know,

But one thing is sure, it's the RECORDING that makes the whole difference.
I liked synthesizers, moog and electronic music in the later seventies/eighties, but got "educated" to classical music thanks to a decent set-up, good recordings of acoustic instruments.

 

[andreasmaaan]

But one thing is sure, it's the RECORDING that makes the whole difference.

I would contend that the recording is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition

 

[restorer-john]

I think we can all agree that depth is not a given with any system or recording. When you hear the speakers 'disappear' and the back wall also melts away, it's amazing but usually fleeting. I think our brains know it's not real and chasing that dragon becomes harder. Maybe that's the 'hook' in HiFi to keep audiophiles buying from their dealer?