• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Soundstage and image

Harmonie

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
509
Likes
232
Location
France
#21
I would contend that the recording is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition ;)
Of cuuurse, it's not 1/0.
But the more we get into it, I feel the input and output is important, what's in between seems less important as long as it measures well .
Hence a good recording and well positioned (better) speakers have a bigger coefficient than the dac-preamp-amp as long as it measures well.

Just a tendency, not a rule and no need for rulers.
 

andreasmaaan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
4,971
Likes
5,205
#22
Of cuuurse, it's not 1/0.
But the more we get into it, I feel the input and output is important, what's in between seems less important as long as it measures well .
Hence a good recording and well positioned (better) speakers have a bigger coefficient than the dac-preamp-amp as long as it measures well.

Just a tendency, not a rule and no need for rulers.
Yep, pretty much my thoughts also. Recording, speakers and room are the relevant factors.

EDIT: other than psychology/mood/hearing ability etc., of course.
 

Kvalsvoll

Active Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
243
Likes
428
Location
Norway
#24
In my room I seem to get the opposite effect. I perceive depth more when I can see what's behind the speakers. Either way, lights on or off, drums sound much closer to me, like the picture on the left (but not sticking forward like that), but I'm using traditional speakers.
Some speakers are like that - they present a flat scene. The speakers in my media room are like that, but I still like them very much. With different placement and room acoustics, they can have better depth, but never great.

The room that gave the idea for that illustration was very good - for the time. The ordinary speakers gave a foggy view through a small window into the venue where the recording was made, with instruments scattered around. The panels presented instruments and musicians inside the listening room, huge instruments with body.

Speakers with great 3d present a scene where instruments are placed at different distance, there is always some kind of size of the orchestra in all directions. Instruments AND venue inside the listening room. And all recordings are like that, more or less, some can be quite flat, others can have extreme depth, some are more diffuse, but most present instruments that are clearly separated both in left-right and distance.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
61
Likes
57
#25
Even mono recordings have depth, as long as the speaker/room/ear interaction isn't overwhelming the acoustic of the recording (real or engineered).
 

Chromatischism

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
882
Likes
567
#26
In the recordings I've listened to, drums have "depth" when the bass drum is mixed mono so occupies the center space and sounds big, as it should. Things coming from the center appear to be further back in the soundstage when I can see my flat screen (which is blacked out) and bass traps behind the speakers. The brain seems to be mixing information from the visual and audial systems to pinpoint the location of sounds, and it can be tricked. The other drum hits, being higher in frequency, occur closer, from around each speaker and in between depending on the left/right balance during mixing. But there isn't much depth to those.

So in that sense, it's all in the recording, and in your head. You just need to have decent enough placement to allow the speakers to create that in the room.
 
Last edited:

acbarn

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
192
Likes
383
Location
California
#27
I do a bit of music production, mixing, and mastering. During that process, the engineer controls the placement of the instruments in the sound field with a few basic tools. The most obvious is panning, which of course determines the left/right position in the stereo field. Volume and reverb together determine the front to back position of the instrument (the louder and/or drier the sound, the closer it seems to be, and vice versa). To a less extent, EQ can also have an effect on the front to back position, with brighter instruments with sharper transients tending to sound closer. In anything other than a live performance recorded with a pair of stereo mics, almost all of this positioning is an illusion created by the mix engineer and producer.
 

Wombat

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,052
Likes
5,004
Location
Australia
#28
I do a bit of music production, mixing, and mastering. During that process, the engineer controls the placement of the instruments in the sound field with a few basic tools. The most obvious is panning, which of course determines the left/right position in the stereo field. Volume and reverb together determine the front to back position of the instrument (the louder and/or drier the sound, the closer it seems to be, and vice versa). To a less extent, EQ can also have an effect on the front to back position, with brighter instruments with sharper transients tending to sound closer. In anything other than a live performance recorded with a pair of stereo mics, almost all of this positioning is an illusion created by the mix engineer and producer.

'Soundstage/imaging-positioning' of artists recording in diverse remote locations is a rather subjective practice. I guess there is a need to approximate listener expectations of traditional 'live' positioning of performers.
 

acbarn

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
192
Likes
383
Location
California
#29
'Soundstage/imaging-positioning' of artists recording in diverse remote locations is a rather subjective practice. I guess there is a need to approximate listener expectations of traditional 'live' positioning of performers.
There’s that, and there is also the need to create sonic space for each instrument to prevent masking and mud.
 

Harmonie

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
509
Likes
232
Location
France
#30
Even mono recordings have depth, as long as the speaker/room/ear interaction isn't overwhelming the acoustic of the recording (real or engineered).
Indeed, It's not necessarily a matter of "stereo effect"; it's rather the distance the mike is placed from the instrument.
I can easily perceive depth on my setup; Height is more problematic. Among others Chesky Jazz Vol2 (JD68) demonstrates well.
Another perception I noted recently is the listening volume.
When listening too loud on 2 particular recordings (see below), the scene of a guitar or piano moves unnaturally forward.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iews-sound-quality-feedback.16299/post-531829

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...le-giveaway-for-asr-members.16286/post-530393
 
OP
S
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
17
Likes
4
Thread Starter #31
I have listened to speakers with side firing woofers.
It seems to me they provide more soundstage, that feeling that music has a 3d effect.
I wonder why side firing woofer speakers are not that common. I think there should be more of them.
 

Harmonie

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
509
Likes
232
Location
France
#32
I have listened to speakers with side firing woofers.
It seems to me they provide more soundstage, that feeling that music has a 3d effect.
I wonder why side firing woofer speakers are not that common. I think there should be more of them.
Side firing woofers used to be seen often in the nineties, German Audio Physic, Canton aso; Why not any-more, I wonder.
I'm sure that @restorer-john can tell us a nice story about it :cool:
 

Kal Rubinson

Major Contributor
Industry Insider
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
2,309
Likes
3,025
Location
NYC/CT
#33
I have listened to speakers with side firing woofers.
It seems to me they provide more soundstage, that feeling that music has a 3d effect.
That is surprising.

I wonder why side firing woofer speakers are not that common. I think there should be more of them.
They were a response to the perceived need to make speaker cabinets narrower.

Added in edit: They are also used to equalize the forces on the cabinet.
 
Last edited:

PierreV

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
752
Likes
2,044
#34
I have listened to speakers with side firing woofers.
It seems to me they provide more soundstage, that feeling that music has a 3d effect.
I wonder why side firing woofer speakers are not that common. I think there should be more of them.
FWIW, in the same room, no difference between my Giya G3 (side woofers) and my Focal Scala Utopias (front woofers) in that respect.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2020
Messages
43
Likes
46
#35
I think we can all agree that depth is not a given with any system or recording. When you hear the speakers 'disappear' and the back wall also melts away, it's amazing but usually fleeting. I think our brains know it's not real and chasing that dragon becomes harder. Maybe that's the 'hook' in HiFi to keep audiophiles buying from their dealer?
I agree - it seems our brains are not always cooperative when it comes to falling for illusions. Although some illusions are so good you can't seem to shake them even when you know exactly what's going on.
 
Top Bottom